Political slant and being Catholic...

[Good Friday]

Don't . . .

[crusader1234]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 13 2005, 10:08 PM'] socialism was condemned by the Catholic Church but other than that...

everyone should just be distributist! [/quote]
Socialism and Capitalism were [i]both[/i] condemned actually. I'd say Socialism is the lesser of the two evils because its fueled by honestly good intentions, whereas Capitalism is largely fueled by greed.

[hyperdulia again]

thank you crusader. Both tings grab bits and pieces of truth and twist them into a perversion.

[Guest Aluigi]

first i am a distributist

second, socialism has been condemned

third, capitalism has not been condemned

even Belloc admits capitalism can be held to by a faithful Catholic whereas socialism cannot

socialism is serfdom in disguise. you become just as dependent upon the government as serfs were to their lords. odd how most socialists think they're making progress. this stuff is not the government's domain.

capitalism is a moral neutral, it allows for either good or evil to take place in it.

distributism is the economic system that fosters good best. small government, local governments more in charge, all have the right to land if they will work for it, small businesses all around, actual ownership of property that no one can take away from you... not even property tax! no usury or anything, that's the way to go.

[hyperdulia again]

capitalism as it exists right now is a condemned heresy.

[hyperdulia again]

no amount of attempted justification will make it otherwise.

[Guest Aluigi]

i will not deny that capitalism as it is practiced by greedy capitalists now is evil

the system of capitalism, as in individuals are free to capitalize on their oppurtunities, is not evil, it is a moral neutral. it allows either good or evil to happen.

socialism is always wrong because it is contrary to Catholic Doctrine regarding private property. socialism is when the government oversteps its bounds. captitalism is when it just keeps its hands off.

the way i see it, distributism is further to the right. actually, i have this vision of a circle, if you go far enough left, i'm talking past socialism and past anarchism and past some other ungodliness, you might end up at distributism. i believe if you go right you'll find it faster though.

anyway, capitalism=moral neutral. socialism= wrong. distributism=let's convert the world to this. i already have a plan brewin.

[hyperdulia again]

Moral neutrality isn't a Catholic concept Al. Ideas either affirm basic good, or they affirm basic evil. For its emphasis on personal autonomy alone Capitalism is a moral evil. True enough, though, it is less evil than Socialism.

[Guest Aluigi]

I have to go to bed, but you should all read Hillaire Belloc. If you can't find anything good, PM me your email adress and I'll email you a copy of his essay The Faith and Industrial Capitalism. it affirms Catholics can support capitalism with fair practice, then condemns it from belloc's POV which is awesome, then condemns socialism from belloc and the Church's POV mentioning that it isn't within the realm of Catholic Teaching. he's where I got my serf metaphor! (I tink.. or did that just pop into my head? can't remember. anyway..)

g'night

[Guest Aluigi]

when something is not objectively either good or evil but in subjective cases can be used for either, it is a moral neutral. not sure where i picked up the terminology but i'm pretty sure it is a Catholic concept.

[hyperdulia again]

Since Anna introduced me to Belloc I've read almost every line the man wrote. He is right most of the time,and funny, but he is not the Church.

[hyperdulia again]

Moral neutrality is not a Catholic concept. It might be a concept some Catholic, maybe even some Pope, was fond of, but things affirm good or they affirm evil. And anywa, it's a moot point, Capitalism is objectively eil.

[Guest Aluigi]

the Church never said it is objectively evil. you can hold that opinion but you, like belloc, are not the Church .

blowing bubble gum is morally neutral. if you are blowing that bubble to get it in the hair of the girl in front of you, it's evil. if you are blowing that bubble to get it in the crack in the dam to save the town, it's good.

the fact is that to believe in capitalism practiced correctly is not against the Church. to believe in socialism is against the Church. to believe in greedy capitalism is to be against the Church.

[Socrates]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:35 AM'] Socialism and Capitalism were [i]both[/i] condemned actually.  I'd say Socialism is the lesser of the two evils because its fueled by honestly good intentions, whereas Capitalism is largely fueled by greed. [/quote]
This is not accurate. Socialism is clearly condemned by the Church. Pope Pius XI said, "No one can be at the same time a sincere Catholic and a true Socialist."
The Church has not condemned "Capitalism" across the board, but only "Laizes Faire" (think I misspelled that, sorry) Capitalism, that is, the idea that the economic market should be entirely free from any moral restraints.

There is, in fact, much orthodox Catholic thought in favor of a free market "capitalist" economy, which has proven to provide the most material goods for the most people in actual fact.

Historically, Socialism has led to nothing but failure and misery, and it denies man's right to private property. It leads to economic failure, and places control over people's material goods in the hands of the state, inevitably leading to government tyranny. At its worst (and purest) forms, it has led to the indescribable horrors of Communism and National Socialism (Nazism).

To call Socialism a "lesser evil" speaks great ignorance of economics, Church teaching, and history.

And about 'good intentions," the road to Hell is paved with them!

Edited January 14, 2005 by Socrates

[Thomas]

So far in this topic I have seen no mention of Democracy.

Capitalism is the 'Laizes Faire' version of Democracy. Capitalism as I understand it IS fueled by greed and money. It's a version of government which makes it easy for large corporations to have more political power than people. Democracy on the other hand is a very toned down version of Capitalism. Democracy is based on the people rather than the multi-billion dollar corporations.

This is how I see it, however there seems to be slightly different meanings for 'Capitalism', 'Democracy', and 'Socialism' depending on your upbringing and location in the world.

But seriously...wouldn't it be nice if Political Parties based on Catholic values started springing up all over? Many people, myself included, don't stand solely on one side of the fence when it comes to certain issues. It'd be cool if we could have a party that was a sort of 'the best of both' scenario.

Much Respect,

-Tom