Guest Aluigi Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 i don't really care what people think about the motivation for the war anymore. that's a historical debate. okay okay i know i do enjoy a good crusades debate with a non-Catholic, but I guess since it's such a current historical debate when all the information is still in a daze and people are extremely emotionally biased it's just a lost cause. so long as you support the efforts to secure the Iraqui country and make it safer, even if you think it's an "illegitimate child" abortion must be illegal. i'll submit this as de fide, a requirement on the part of the state. governments should not be in charge of social programs. i'll submit this as simply the better policy most in line with Catholic Teaching. I am a distributist, anti-socialism and anti-capitalism. if you PM me your email I'll email you a copy of Hillaire Belloc's essay "The Faith and Industrial Capitalism" it is a good refutation of both capitalism and socialism. Anyway, yeah, this is all politics. We have to look for which system is going to follow the doctrines the best. Does a system where the government provides medical care for the people follow them best? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 MC Just, cathqat, thanks for your posts...it's a BIG help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 i didn't help? just kiddin'...my post was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathqat Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Jan 13 2005, 06:17 PM']Who gave you the right to determine the justness or unjustness of the war? Unless you are George Bush, you don't have that right according to the teachings of the Church which leaves the determination up to the legitimate temporal authority.[/quote] I think you're probably misapplying the Church's point here. The Church's teaching does not mean that any war the president regards as "just" is actually just, nor that we are not allowed to disagree with the president's beliefs about whether a war is just. [quote]Saddam Hussein, who I might remind you would still be in power if it weren't for George W. Bush?[/quote] I don't know anyone who believes it would be better for Hussein to be in power. But I know many people who believe the means used to remove him were immoral. A good end, no matter how good, would not justify bad means. So please do not try to divert from the question of whether the means were acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Whaoh, Little Red...Thank you so much for your reply! I think I started typing that before I saw your reply. Blessed are those who are overlooked...cause uh...Tom will say sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='Thomas' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:53 PM'] So basically I want to get your views? Is there any 'liberal' Catholics out there? Any Catholics who are willing to stand up and put their savior ahead of their country? Their faith ahead of their patriotism? I want to come back to the faith very much, but I don't want to be refered to as a 'Pro-Abortionist Liberal'. I challenge you here to respect others as Jesus respected the gentiles. Jesus came for EVERYONE, not just heterosexual, patriotic Americans. [Don't get me wrong, I have no hatred for Conservative Americans, or Bush even. I try very hard to love everyone and I see you all as equals. All I am asking is that you do likewise.] Maybe I'm setting the wrong tone here. I do not dislike 'conservatives'. As Catholics, furthermore as people on this planet we're all brothers and sisters [Refer to Jesus of Nazareth for more on this teaching] so how can some be so supportive of NOT turning the other cheek? If Jesus were the president at 9/11 what do you think he would have done? Think about that. The war in Iraq especially wasn't even justified by international law, how would it be justified by the law of love? So yeah, any other left-leaning Catholics in here who are sick of this? Or for the sake of equality, Conservative Catholics who are sick of the slander from the left? Why can't we put our religion before our political leanings. I am Catholic first, Democrat Second. So why should any of you see me as lower than you because of my political leanings? Because I'm open minded? It's that close-minded attitude of 'Catholics are to be Conservative or else Fraudulent'. This is an attitude I've seen a lot at Phatmass...and it is what turned me away from the faith half a year ago. Now I'm giving it a second shot. Please just respect me as your brother. Remember, Jesus was a dissident. -Tom [/quote] Most phatmassers consider themselves Catholic first, then whatever nationality they are second. Here the Church comes first. Jesus was not a dissident, in fact He came to fulfill the law and was perfectly obedient to His Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) But wasn't he a dissident in that he rejected some of the aspects of Jewish tradition that were contrary to what God wanted? If so, that's what I meant. Edited January 14, 2005 by Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 He rejected things that were added to the law by men that negated the heart of the law, but never anything to do with the Law itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 13 2005, 04:46 PM'] I don't know anyone who believes it would be better for Hussein to be in power. But I know many people who believe the means used to remove him were immoral. A good end, no matter how good, would not justify bad means. So please do not try to divert from the question of whether the means were acceptable. [/quote] The removal of Saddam Hussein from power was a moral good, but whether the means employed to remove him were justified is something that people can debate till they are blue in the face. Some hold that the means used were justified, some hold that they were not, but I doubt the debate on this issue will be resolved for many years. One thing is certain, the debate will not be settled on an internet forum. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Thomas' date='Jan 13 2005, 05:01 PM'] But wasn't he a dissident in that he rejected some of the aspects of Jewish tradition that were contrary to what God wanted? If so, that's what I meant. [/quote] Jesus is not a dissident, He is God and man. The reduction of Christ's message to a message of a political nature leads one into theological error. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote]Jesus is not a dissident, He is God and man. The reduction of Christ's message to a message of a political nature leads one into theological error. God bless, Todd[/quote] Gotcha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) The fact is, phatmassers have quite a variety of political opinions, ranging from leftist socialists to feudalist monarchists! Catholics on this site will of course disagree about which system/party/philosophy best represents the Catholic Faith. I myself am a die-hard true blue American conservative, and will stand up for my principles. I do beleive religion is more important than politics, and do not necesarrily think that politically "liberal" Catholics are not "real" Catholics, but I do beleive them severely mistaken, and will debate them when issues come up. This is what the debate table is for! My biggest problem is when Catholics support pro-abortion politicians (this doesn't matter to me if they are Dem, Republican, whatever) and claim to be pro-life. Bush and the Republicans may not have done enough to fight abortion, but have certainly done more than liberal Democrats, who almost invariably do all they can to actively promote this evil! Likewise, with homosexual issues. The Church has clearly condemned homosexuality, and therefore anyone who works to promote this unnatural vice and its acceptance in society goes against the Catholic Faith. (Both these topics have been debated at length in other threads. On another point, I think it is wrong for liberals to equate George W. Bush and Conservatism. I myself am rather ambivilent about Bush (though I still definitely prefer him to Kerry.) Many of Bush's policies are rather at odds with conservatism (which stands for small government and limitations of its power), and there are those who oppose the war in Iraq for conservative reasons. Catholics can disagree on economic policies and wars, but as I see it, the Left has become increasingly a vehemently godless movement, promoting abortion, homosexuality, immorality, and anti-Christian policy at every turn. I can never, in good conscience, promote the Left's current agenda. Edited January 14, 2005 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 socialism was condemned by the Catholic Church but other than that... everyone should just be distributist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl']Most phatmassers consider themselves Catholic first, then whatever nationality they are second. Here the Church comes first.[/quote] :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Tell another! Tell another! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Bumped for the mods. Merry Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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