Political slant and being Catholic...

[Thomas]

Alright,

I was raised a Catholic and I've strugled much over the past few years. I came back to the faith whole-heartedly last year as you may see from my posts and such, however I was ultimately turned off from the faith after a few months by the attitude that some people [many phatmassers included] have towards a political slant in Catholicism.

I am what some of you would call a 'Liberal' [In Canada this doesn't have a negative connotation at all...it's just one of our political parties.] That said, I don't like war, I don't like the abolition of social welfare programs, and I'm very open minded to all people of all orientations.

However I couldn't believe that many people, especially here on phatmass, were so close minded about so many things. So adamant about supporting the war in Iraq, and supporting the Bush administration in many of it's causes and so on. In retrospect we now know the war was unjustified, the estimates right now are that 100, 000 civilians died and many more soldiers on both sides. This is what turned me away from the faith, I didn't want to be associated in ANY way with a group that supports the slaughter of inocent people.

To be clear, no I do not like abortion. I am against is wholeheartedly, but it's not as if the 'liberals' in America were going to forge ahead and go forcefully abort every unborn child in America. This is Bush's second term, and abortion is an alive and well practice in America. It's been 4 years and abortion is still legal an all too frequent.

I'm sorry, this situation doesn't sit well with me. The hundreds of thousands of lives lost in Afganistan and Iraq are all on the hands of one administration...abortion is different, it is a symptom of many underlying social problems which have to be dealt with.

So basically I want to get your views? Is there any 'liberal' Catholics out there? Any Catholics who are willing to stand up and put their savior ahead of their country? Their faith ahead of their patriotism? I want to come back to the faith very much, but I don't want to be refered to as a 'Pro-Abortionist Liberal'. I challenge you here to respect others as Jesus respected the gentiles. Jesus came for EVERYONE, not just heterosexual, patriotic Americans. [Don't get me wrong, I have no hatred for Conservative Americans, or Bush even. I try very hard to love everyone and I see you all as equals. All I am asking is that you do likewise.]

Maybe I'm setting the wrong tone here. I do not dislike 'conservatives'. As Catholics, furthermore as people on this planet we're all brothers and sisters [Refer to Jesus of Nazareth for more on this teaching] so how can some be so supportive of NOT turning the other cheek? If Jesus were the president at 9/11 what do you think he would have done? Think about that. The war in Iraq especially wasn't even justified by international law, how would it be justified by the law of love?

So yeah, any other left-leaning Catholics in here who are sick of this? Or for the sake of equality, Conservative Catholics who are sick of the slander from the left? Why can't we put our religion before our political leanings. I am Catholic first, Democrat Second. So why should any of you see me as lower than you because of my political leanings? Because I'm open minded? It's that close-minded attitude of 'Catholics are to be Conservative or else Fraudulent'. This is an attitude I've seen a lot at Phatmass...and it is what turned me away from the faith half a year ago. Now I'm giving it a second shot. Please just respect me as your brother.

Remember, Jesus was a dissident.


-Tom

[Guest Aluigi]

Catholics are not required to think of the war one way or the other. i think it's best to simply forget the debate, it's unimportant as nothing can be changed now. as the Holy Father said, even if it's an illegitimate child, we must all now support Iraq. The troops can't just leave the place in turmoil.

anyway, abortion must be illegal regardless of these "social conditions" you speak of, it is always and everywhere murder and it costs more deaths than all wars combined. doesn't mean we shouldn't work to fix these social conditions, but it is murder and should not be permitted under any circumstances.

the best model of Government is small government in Catholic Teaching as far as i see it. socialism makes people dependant on government, I don't agree with the government taking on a lot of social programs at all. it's not within the right of the state in my humble opinion. in fact, i think it is serfdom resurfacing in disguise. people are dependent upon their government (lord) for medical care and education et cetera et cetera. anyway, we could have a debate about that i'm sure.

turning the other cheek does not disallow for self-defense or just punishment deserved by a criminal. it means no personal vendettas, plus if you ever get a chance read how G.K. Chesterton explains Christ as a mirror of St. Francis and you'll really get it. But yeah, there is such a thing as Just War Doctrine, not ALL wars are unjust (whether or not this one was). Jesus definitely would defend the Just War Doctrine, for Jesus and His Church are one and the same.

if you turned away from the Faith due to the political affiliations of some of its members, your faith certainly wasn't strong enough. there's gonna be people that disagree with you on current events. Traditional Catholic Teaching allows for the death penalty, and I suppose you'd enter the camp that says it is no longer necessary in the modern world. well, there are people that think it is necessary (myself included), will you leave the Church because of me? if you do, you do not understand Christ's Church. follow Christ, follow his Church, be wise as a serpent and simple as a dove and live your life upholding Catholic Morality.

affiliating yourself with a part lends itself to a group thinking, if that party is attacked you take it personally, even if it's being attacked for something in it that you disagree with.

we all agree on doctrine. we all agree on faith and morals. we don't all agree on current events, but we will argue those based on the doctrines and follow the guidance of the Church and hopefully make the right decisions.

voting for a militantly pro-abortion candidate (like Kerry who was so far pro-abortion he would vote against stuff like the Unborn Victems of Violence Act for God's sake!) is sinful. We must work to stop abortion. It must be illegalized.

remember, the only purpose of an open mind is that you can close it around the truth. some people can have such an open mind that all their brains fall out, gotta be careful (Chestertonian insights again can you tell i got his books for Christmas? )

Edited January 13, 2005 by Aluigi

[MC Just]

lol, sorry to laugh, but I personally see Liberals as too "loose" too "lax" "anything goes" "nothing matters" "there is no truth, but my own opinions" Liberals brought scandal into the Church because of their "tolerance" for immorality. How can one say they oppose something yet turn their backs on the what it causes? Abortion will not make this country stronger, so why is it that liberals do not help to stop it? Instead they support abortion and make it Planned Parenthood and such clinics stronger. I'm sorry but i tell it how it is. Liberalism is a sin. Especially when the so called "free thought" leads them away from Church Teaching.

[MC Just]

Wait till you hear my "good bye, Good men" song..or you can just listen to "crusade II by MC just on the phatmass radio. That's how I feel. The church is in shambles in America because of such people. Esp the Catholic ones, who seem to find nothing wrong with the things that actually destroy nations and cultures.

Edited January 13, 2005 by MC Just

[Thomas]

[quote]"anyway, abortion must be illegal regardless of these "social conditions" you speak of, it is always and everywhere murder and it costs more deaths than all wars combined."[/quote]

I was not at all trying to justify abortion, again...I do not like it at all and I do wish it was illegal.

[quote]I don't agree with the government taking on a lot of social programs at all.  it's not within the right of the state in my humble opinion.  anyway, we could have a debate about that i'm sure.[/quote]

I totally support social programs that have a positive impact on society. Why not?


[quote]turning the other cheek does not disallow for self-defense or just punishment deserved by a criminal. [/quote]

"Who ever is without sin may cast the first stone..."

And the Iraq war wasn't 'self-defence'...it was explicitly stated by Bush that it was a 'pre-emptive' strike.

[quote]
if you turned away from the Faith due to the political affiliations of some of its members, your faith certainly wasn't strong enough.[/quote]

Perhaps your right...I don't deny that the fault could be my own...

[quote]affiliating yourself with a part lends itself to a group thinking, if that party is attacked you take it personally, even if it's being attacked for something in it that you disagree with.[/quote]

That was the smartest thing I've heard all day...thank you. But can't that swing both ways?

[quote] I'm sorry but i tell it how it is. Liberalism is a sin.[/quote]

Wow...

Perhaps you've missed my point...but I was stating that maybe we should put our faith [or in my case, prospective faith] ahead of our political leanings?

Sorry if this irks you but its just my personal opinion.

Edited January 13, 2005 by Thomas

[MC Just]

Conservatives are Putting their Faith first. They are not putting a politcal party above their Faith. It's the Liberals who are doing that. some of them are so "democratic" that they expect the church to become it. They are trying to change the faith rather than letting the faith change them..

Edited January 13, 2005 by MC Just

[Guest Aluigi]

<i edited my post with more detail>
Liberalismo es Pecado (Liberalism is a Sin) was accepted by the Holy Office while its oponent book was put on the forbidden books list. but is that liberalism the liberalism your thinking of? who knows. liberalism is a term with many many connotations, I can agree with MC Just that liberalism is a sin, but I could agree with you that it's ok for Catholics to lean somewhat politically liberal, not on morality issues but maybe on economic issues (just avoid SOCIALISM which was explicitly condemned by the Church)

[JP2Iloveyou]

I don't have time to really formulate a complete response, but suffice it to say that I consider myself a conservative, in the American meaning of the term.

A couple of things for you to consider...Who gave you the right to determine the justness or unjustness of the war? Unless you are George Bush, you don't have that right according to the teachings of the Church which leaves the determination up to the legitimate temporal authority.

Where did you get that number of dead from? Do you have some source backing it up? Also, do you have an accurate count of the number of people murdered under Saddam Hussein, who I might remind you would still be in power if it weren't for George W. Bush?

As for the abortion issue, it sounds to me like you are giving an administration four years to correct a problem that has been in existence since the 1970s. I don't think that's fair.

Now, let's be honest about Afghanistan. Afghanistan was in the hands of terrorists before the United States came. They were run by murderous thugs who, when they weren't killing those who disagreed with them, were oppressing women. With all due respect to you and all "liberals," ya'all need to put your money where your mouth is. You guys cry to high heaven for equal justice for all, then when we actually try to do something about it, you criticize us. Need I remind you, the United States was attacked in the first move of this war. On September 11, 2001, terrorists hijacked four planes and killed 3,000 innocent people on American soil. These people were essentially supported by the Taliban government in control of Afghanistan at the time. Furthermore the new president of Afghanistan wholeheartedly supports the U.S. in his country. Of course, since the New York Times and other "news" sources like them don't want you to know that, they burry the story on page A34 or something like that.

Let me just touch on a few of your other points, then I really have to get going. First of all, social welfare. I've read the recent social teachings of the Church (Solicitudo Rei Socialis, Centessimus Annus, and Laborem Exorcens from JPII to name a few) and to some extent you are right here. He says the government does have a responsibility to help its citizens, but only if they can't help themselves first. As a conservative, I believe in giving to the poor as much as you do, I just think that I am perfectly capable of giving to the poor on my own, I don't need the government to come take my money, blow half of it, and then give 2.34% or whatever it is now to the poor.

As for "orientation," I assume you mean homosexuality. As with anything else, love the sinner, hate the sin. It's hard to respond to this without an argument. Please provide an argument as to why you believe this. I probably won't have time to respond for a week or so, but eventually I'll get to it.

I do put my religion first, but I am confident that my politics reflect my religion.

[url="http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200501110730.asp"]http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200501110730.asp[/url]

[MC Just]

I'll just stay away from thise thread now and remember the words of Fr. Angelus Shaughnessy" "You can dialogue with people like that until doomsday, it will take a miracle of God's grace to change them"

Aluigi, im talking about the liberalism that crept into the seminaries and caused the scandals. The liberalism that tells people there is not truth but what they make it.

Edited January 13, 2005 by MC Just

[track2004]

Thomas.

Sometimes I find this site a little to right wing for my own tastes and I consider myself reasonably conservative. I do agree that the Conservative Catholics and the Liberal Catholics don't see the basic faith that drives them and let the political conotations disrupt the unity of The Church. I also think that sometimes here, and in real life, people take situations to extreems that are completely impossible. The whole world will not get rid of poverty, not have wars, or get everybody Catholic and it is reasonably illogical to talk about it like it could happen any time soon. I think what we should be talking about is what I can do and what you can do and how we can improve the world as opposed to making it utopic.

My faith and it's implications guide my political philosophies. On the other hand I do consider more than my own veiw point, especially in the political sphere. Religion and politics are so completely different, yet so similar it's really hard to know which is driving the other and to differentiate whether I am an American Catholic or whether I'm a Catholic American.

I could say more but I'll leave that for another time. Pax.

[Lil Red]

it's interesting to note that "turning the other cheek" in Jesus' time was considered an insult...like "is that all you got?!"

that being said, i'm sorry that you had turned away from the faith but i always wonder at the power people give the internet (especially phatmass in particular)...you should go out into the world and experience your faith...not just experience it on the internet....and if you have questions...ask a priest in your city - not just peeps on phatmass....

that being said, maybe that's what you've done, and that's why you're back and investigating again....at any rate, you should just ignore my ramblings...i get nervous when i'm in the debate table

anyway, i'm glad you're back and asking questions! (again, i'll stop answering because there are more qualified people here to answer)

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jan 13 2005, 06:19 PM'] Aluigi, im talking about the liberalism that crept into the seminaries and caused the scandals. The liberalism that tells people there is not truth but what they make it. [/quote]
I know what you're talking about.

[Thomas]

Alright, this is filling up fast.

Well thank you to everyone for your replies. I totally respect your opinions.

This isn't a challenge, I'm just answering a request for the source of my information- 100, 000 dead: [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html[/url]

As for the orientation, yeah sexual orientation, that's what I meant. I don't know I havn't done enough research this specific debate to have a solid stance...but I have friends who are homosexuals and I respect them in that. Everyone's different. [Not getting into the institution of marriage debate, just the respecting of others]

Anyway I basically started this thread to suggest we put faith before patriotism or political slant...but in retrospect, I was a little hypocritical in doing so. So my apologies for that.

All I'm asking is that those of you with 'Anti-Liberal' views just respect me and my political views.

JP2Iloveyou you speak of how there should be minimal government involvment in social betterment programs essentially because its a moral issue, but then you go on to say that we need the government to illegalize abortion now. I agree, I hate abortion. I just wish that there was an independant or a political party in every country that perfectly represented the church, then we wouldn't have this division .

Also, no the validity of the war in Iraq is not based on my views. I was just saying that in regards to ORIGINAL motive given for the war it was unjustified because that motive was unfulfilled. Again, not a challenge...just fullfilling a previous request to backup what I said.

Sorry I really got ahead of myself in attacking the Bush administration [must confess I often do...I'll work on that], again that is part of how I was being a hypocrite in asking not to be judged, and then judging. I offer no excuse, I just ask your forgiveness. But I hope we can continue this discussion in a positive manor and maybe COME TOGETHER rather than create a wider divide? I don't think anyone here really sits totally on one side of the fence when it comes to the Conservative or Liberal lables...those are just tags that we've accumulated because everyone tries to simplify the world into black and white so often.

To summarize, sorry about the hypocracy on my part, please forgive me for that. But can we use this thread to focus on our uniting points [Catholicism] and not our differences [Politics]...?

Edited January 13, 2005 by Thomas

[cathqat]

[quote name='Thomas' date='Jan 13 2005, 05:53 PM']I was raised a Catholic and I've strugled much over the past few years.  I came back to the faith whole-heartedly last year as you may see from my posts and such[/quote]

Welcome back!

[quote]I am what some of you would call a 'Liberal' [In Canada this doesn't have a negative connotation at all...it's just one of our political parties.][/quote]

Liberal means lots of very different things in different contexts. Personally, I rarely find it a useful label without a whole lot of clarification.

[quote]I don't like war, I don't like the abolition of social welfare programs, and I'm very open minded to all people of all orientations.[/quote]

You are certainly not alone among Catholics in such views!

All of us have to ask ourselves questions like "what kind of policies best reflect the teaching of the Gospel in the Church?" Sometimes we come to different conclusions about how best to apply the Gospel to particular circumstances, but we agree that we must all strive to adhere to the Gospel of Christ and apply it in our everyday lives.

[quote]However I couldn't believe that many people, especially here on phatmass, were so close minded about so many things.  So adamant about supporting the war in Iraq, and supporting the Bush administration in many of it's causes and so on.[/quote]

Many Catholics opposed the war in Iraq for a variety of reasons. Pope John Paul II is Catholic, and he opposed war in Iraq too. And many Catholics oppose Bush's policies on a number of other issues. We are not required, as Catholics, to belong to any particular political party, nor to endorse any particular political candidates.

You mentioned Canada: One of the things I like about Canada is the ability to cast a protest vote, i.e. to explain on the ballot exactly why you are not voting for a party/candidate and to have that reason counted. I wish the U.S. would consider something like this.

[quote]To be clear, no I do not like abortion.  I am against is wholeheartedly[/quote]

I believe you, and I am very glad to hear it.

[quote]but it's not as if the 'liberals' in America were going to forge ahead and go forcefully abort every unborn child in America.[/quote]

You are correct. [url="http://www.democratsforlife.org"]Some American Democrats are opposed to abortion[/url].

[quote]This is Bush's second term, and abortion is an alive and well practice in America.  It's been 4 years and abortion is still legal an all too frequent.[/quote]

Because of the precedents which were employed in the Supreme Court making the Roe v. Wade decision, it will probably be a long, difficult road to abolition. A president alone could not possibly hope to abolish abortion, no matter who he is.

[quote]So basically I want to get your views?  Is there any 'liberal' Catholics out there?[/quote]

Again, I find the use of the term "liberal" too confusing to be helpful.

[quote]Any Catholics who are willing to stand up and put their savior ahead of their country?  Their faith ahead of their patriotism?[/quote]

Many more than you might imagine!

[quote]I don't want to be refered to as a 'Pro-Abortionist Liberal'.[/quote]

I don't see any reason why you would be, unless you support abortion.

[MC Just]

Dont get me wrong, im affected by the political stuff too, and i also started to lose faith, but then i realized the whole church here is not bad, just a certain group of people within the church, ruining the church because of thier heterodox state of mind.

"whats wrong with woman priests" whats wrong with abortion" "people have their Choices" "whats wrong with homosexual marriages" Christians are called to reject evil and change the world. Not to make it worse by saying "it doesnt matter". or there's nothing wrong with something that the Church has already condemned, and the bible itself states is wrong.

I love you no matter what, although i come across hard. There are many upon many of studies on these things. It's all very clear and obvious what's right and what's wrong.. These views of mine, are what ive seen and heard from the mouths of liberals.

Edited January 13, 2005 by MC Just