US Soldiers Commits Suicide to Avoid Going Back

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 13 2005, 04:58 AM'] Well, it would probably help if the recruiters didn't pretty up the benefits and totally ignore the realities of war when convincing people fresh out of [b]high school[/b], who shouldn't be making decisions of such magnitude in the first place, let alone without accurate information, to join the military.  Recruiters outright lie to people about life in the military in order to get them to join.

It's somewhat comparable to the false information and distortions given to young women about abortion.  Any Catholic who thinks that young women should be given accurate information about abortion should also think that young men and women should be given accurate information about joining the military.  That's what's called a [i]consistent ethic of life[/i] (which I know is a dirty word around here, I'm surprised the Phatmass filters don't change it to something else).

And all Catholics should have compassion for those who commit suicide for whatever reason -- but especially those who have been through the hell of this war and don't want to go back to it.  The lack of compassion in this thread is sickening and is more representative of American conservatism than of Roman Catholic Christianity. [/quote]
I disagree. Every recruiter that I have ever talked to, friends of mine talked to, or that I have known gave accurate information.

Only an idiot would not think of the possibility of war.

There is no lack of compassion. That is the problem with the left, someone who doesn't want to stick to something THEY agreed to, we're supposed to feel sorry for. No... that's not the case. Somebody gives their oath then they need to stick to it. This goes for marriage, military, everyday life.

Now, take the chip off your shoulder and pay a little more attention. You can't always read the tone of people posting. The lack of compassion for people who you think fail to show compassion in your reply is sickening. The very fact that you complain about people not "showing" compassion in your opinion is a lack of compassion.

News flash... Real Catholicism is conservative... conservatism pretty much comes from Catholic teaching.

Edited January 13, 2005 by ironmonk

[XIX]

You don't belong in the military unless you are willing to accept going to war.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:43 AM'] I didn't say YOU did, if you bothered to read it.

Oh, so now I'm arrogant because I spoke the truth? Whatever. If you want to play that game, so are you for basking in the glow of your supposed righteousness. Backhanded judgmentalism? Hmmmm, let's see, THEY COMMITTED SUICIDE TO GET OUT OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES. I think they passed judgement on themselves there, which, from the Catholic Church point of view, is NOT ok.

And yes, I am a winner. My video games tell me so. [/quote]
Do you realize PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is a mental injury? I think it's arrogant and self righteous to suggest these soldiers are "sherking" their responsibilites AS soldiers, when clearly they were not mentally fit to return to service. They were reacting normally (as in defying responsibilities) to an abnormal situation. I would think the only thing worse than committing suicide at home is doing it in Iraq and taking half your platoon with you. I also would've thought soliders would undergo stringent psychological evalutation prior to returning to the battlefield. If there was, there would've been no need for these soldiers to "shirk" their responsibilities, hence kill themselves.

In any case, the article is a load of baloney. Typical left wing propaganda, plenty of questions, but no actual solution. Actually, the article did offer one answer "[b]bring them home[/b]", but if we do that, that leaves another ten dozen questions requiring just as many answers. What happens to Iraq then? Who will patrol the streets? They don't care, it's all about America.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

ironmonk, you rock


Anyhow, "bring them home" will only result in more deaths of children that the 'article' condemns.

[Brother Adam]

woah.

It's horrible that the soldier did what he did. Of course there are always other non-lethal ways to avoid going back. Clearly, there were mental problems.

Is the American government evil? Of course not. An entity cannot be evil in itself. There are evil Americans, and there are very decent politicians. Some like Hillary Clinton should be expelled from the country. I side completely with Kilroy here.

[spathariossa]

I have to say I agree with everybody in here.

On the one hand, I feel that you shouldn't join the military unless you are willing to accept and deal with the consequences of going to war.

On the other hand, having experience with mental illness, with homeless veterans, and with the psychiatric system in America, I think that these soldiers should not have been told they were going back to Iraq and given a date for that to happen. They should have been medically (and mentally) examined, given the treatment they needed. And then, if declared fit for combat, they should have gone back. But I think what people fail to understand and recognize is that mental illness is as much an illness as cancer or the flu. It is something that needs treatment. A soldier with mental illness or PTSD is NOT fit for duty.

So - the soldiers should go back. But we should all have compassion for them, they should get the help they need, and they should be healthy before they do it.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Phazzan' date='Jan 13 2005, 10:50 AM'] Do you realize PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is a mental injury? I think it's arrogant and self righteous to suggest these soldiers are "sherking" their responsibilites AS soldiers, when clearly they were not mentally fit to return to service. They were reacting normally (as in defying responsibilities) to an abnormal situation. I would think the only thing worse than committing suicide at home is doing it in Iraq and taking half your platoon with you. I also would've thought soliders would undergo stringent psychological evalutation prior to returning to the battlefield. If there was, there would've been no need for these soldiers to "shirk" their responsibilities, hence kill themselves. [/quote]
Thank you Phazzan for pointing out PTSD. Yes, I'm well aware of this mental disconnect. Again, all the soldier had to do was stand up and say, "No, I'm not going back,". Then he probably would have eventually gotten help.

There is never a "normal situation" where one would commit sucide. Men have gone to war for centuries in wars they didn't believe in, and some have committed suicde but most have not.

It's arrogant and self-righteous to think that one can escape the wrath of God and the suffering of the world by selfishly and cowardly committing sucide. The shirking of the duties referred more towards the soldiers in the article who simply went AWOL.

And I'm not [i]suggesting[/i] anyone shirked their duties, I'm [i][b]stating fact[/b][/i].

[ironmonk]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jan 13 2005, 01:19 PM'] ironmonk, you rock


Anyhow, "bring them home" will only result in more deaths of children that the 'article' condemns. [/quote]
Thanks bro...

I agree with you.

I want the soldiers to come home, but I know that if they leave now there will be a long drawn out war in Iraq. The terrorist will attack more openly and in greater forces if the US leaves Iraq now. More people will die and be tortured worse than when Saddam was in power. These fanatical muslims have been this way for about 1300 years... What makes the left think they'll just stop fighting? Where is the compassion for the poor Iraqi people?!

If the US troops left now there would be tens of thousands of innocent well meaning Iraqi people.

Last I checked it was a volunteer military, why hasn't the media been showing more of the men who want to be there? They get one out of a thousand that doesn't want to be there and raise him on their shoulders screaming look at this one. Yeah... the one that doesn't want to keep his promise, the one who doesn't want to help his 'friends', the one out of a thousand.


God Bless.
ironmonk

[Phazzan]

[quote]Thank you Phazzan for pointing out PTSD.  Yes, I'm well aware of this mental disconnect.  Again, all the soldier had to do was stand up and say, "No, I'm not going back,".  Then he probably would have eventually gotten help.[/quote]

The "defying" soldier is subject to ridicule, humiliation and possibly legal action at the hands of the Army, American Government and public. Refusing service is no more honourable, pleasing or forgivable than a soldier who goes AWOL. However, both are normal reactions to abnormal situations, and probably fueled by irrational fear or an anxiety complex (link PTSD). Of course some will intentionally "shirk" their responsibilities cause they're too weak and whimpish to go on, but it's ignorant to judge them all like that, when some are more fit for service than others.

And no one ever said one can escape the wrath of God by committing suicide, but you know, these soldiers that do were probably suffering from psychiatric illness. There's only one Person that know the mental and emotional well being of these soliders, and He alone can judge. I used to see suicide as an evil, selfish cowardly thing to do, and while it still may be, please understand people really had to suffer to want to do it.

[JP2Iloveyou]

I do not have the time nor the energy to read this entire thread right now, but let me respond with a few thoughts.

First, students out of high school are old enough to make these decisions. It is a product of our society that doesn't force young men and women to grow up when they are supposed to. A young 17 or 18 year old is a man or a woman, a young man or woman yes, but nevertheless a man or woman. He or she is old enough to think for him or herself. It is high time for our society to quit letting people be children until they are 25.

Secondly, as is the case with anyone in the Armed Services, this guy had a choice. He could have signed up, knowing full well that there was a chance he would be sent off to war, or he could have not signed up. He chose to sign up. That is his decision. Whether or not he objects is irrelevant.

Thirdly, I cannot STAND when people call our soldiers murderers and terrorists. They are anything but and anyone who says otherwise is simply ignorant of the situation. Our soldiers are bringing about freedom in the world today. Freedom is a good thing. You want to talk about terrorism? Talk about 9-11. Talk about Saddam Hussein and his henchmen. Talk about Yassir Arafat. American soldiers are not terrorists. If this world weren't so influenced by left-wing biases in the media, George Bush would be being praised as a hero and champion of freedom, which he most certainly is.

Now, I am going to pose a very simple question to everyone opposed to the war in Iraq. Here it is. Is the world better off today with Saddam Hussein out of power? Yes or no. Simple.

God Bless and God Bless America

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:40 AM'] Still whining about the American government. Maybe we should bring our 13,000 soldiers who are aiding tsunami victims home, maybe we should keep all our money?
Or maybe we should only aid the victims who like us? Maybe we should ask if they like us and sign a paper stating this before we feed them?
Those are the things you would expect of an evil government right?


I suppose I wouldn't be horrified by actions taken by the irish or the brits or the canadian governments? They are made up of paragons of virtue correct?

Governments are made up of sinners just like you and me. So to say you wish the government to fall or the government is evil, is to say many friends, neighbors and relations etc are evil people. Is that your intention?
I was a govenment employee does that make me evil? My family has honorably served in the military for 300 years, so are we all evil? Do I like the military , not particularly. But if you sign up, you do the time , get help,or deal with the consequences.

You expect Catholics to separate the sin from the sinner in other areas, why can't you do the same? You don't like blanket condemnation, but its ok for you to dish out?

Yes there are "evil people" in government. Duh. There are "evil people" everywhere. Sometimes they seem to congregate in particular places [ like the Democratic party maybe?] oh but I can't say THAT can I?
If the guy was mentally ill he needed help, and its sad he didn't have the courage to get it, or wasn't forced in to it. Nobody forced him to hurt himself. He and his family both need prayers.

The liberal emotional rhetoric doesn't work. [/quote]
Awwww not use to people going against your 'beautiful, free and brave' country?

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:43 AM'] I didn't say YOU did, if you bothered to read it.

Oh, so now I'm arrogant because I spoke the truth?  Whatever.  If you want to play that game, so are you for basking in the glow of your supposed righteousness.  Backhanded judgmentalism?  Hmmmm, let's see, THEY COMMITTED SUICIDE TO GET OUT OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES. I think they passed judgement on themselves there, which, from the Catholic Church point of view, is NOT ok.

And yes, I am a winner.  My video games tell me so.  [/quote]
[quote]THEY COMMITTED SUICIDE TO GET OUT OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES.[/quote]

Edited by Ice Princess.

Edited January 14, 2005 by IcePrincessKRS

[Totus Tuus]

Is it just me or was that article just BIT biased? It's a tragic event, and making it fuel against a good man (aka, our president) doesn't honor the dead, it promotes an agenda.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 13 2005, 03:31 AM'][b]How Many More Will it Take—How Many More Will Have to Die?[/b]

[/quote]
He didn't have to die. The situation didn't dictate that he had to die. There is always a choice. He may not have understood this. Too bad he had to take such an action that resulted in 2 deaths, his and the [url="http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/4079115/detail.html?subid=22100408&qs=1;bp=t"]police officer[/url] that he killed.

[Socrates]

[quote] do not have the time nor the energy to read this entire thread right now, but let me respond with a few thoughts.

First, students out of high school are old enough to make these decisions. It is a product of our society that doesn't force young men and women to grow up when they are supposed to. A young 17 or 18 year old is a man or a woman, a young man or woman yes, but nevertheless a man or woman. He or she is old enough to think for him or herself. It is high time for our society to quit letting people be children until they are 25.

Secondly, as is the case with anyone in the Armed Services, this guy had a choice. He could have signed up, knowing full well that there was a chance he would be sent off to war, or he could have not signed up. He chose to sign up. That is his decision. Whether or not he objects is irrelevant.

Thirdly, I cannot STAND when people call our soldiers murderers and terrorists. They are anything but and anyone who says otherwise is simply ignorant of the situation. Our soldiers are bringing about freedom in the world today. Freedom is a good thing. You want to talk about terrorism? Talk about 9-11. Talk about Saddam Hussein and his henchmen. Talk about Yassir Arafat. American soldiers are not terrorists. If this world weren't so influenced by left-wing biases in the media, George Bush would be being praised as a hero and champion of freedom, which he most certainly is.

Now, I am going to pose a very simple question to everyone opposed to the war in Iraq. Here it is. Is the world better off today with Saddam Hussein out of power? Yes or no. Simple.

God Bless and God Bless America [/quote]
Great post JP2!

Time limits me from making a full post right now, but that said much of what I would like to have said.
I've really gotten sick of all the anti-American whining on this site.

God bless America!

Edited January 14, 2005 by Socrates