Phatmasser777 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 [b]How Many More Will it Take—How Many More Will Have to Die?[/b] By: Jack Dalton 01/12/05 "ICH" -- Andreas Raya, a Marine that had been to Iraq once, and was scheduled to go back to Iraq a second time, has committed suicide--by forcing the police to shot him in front of a convince store in Ceres, Ca. According to his family, he was "different" when he came back from Iraq. He had changed. This is something that those of us that have seen war up close and personal know about. Seeing humanity at its worse does things to you, and it does not always go away. Sgt Kevin Benderman has refused re-deployment to Iraq. 22 others in Kevin's unit have also refused to deploy by either going AWOL, or, as with two, attempt suicide. After recovering from the suicide, “one of the two packed up his entire family and went AWOL”--this information was sent to me by Kevin’s wife, Monica earlier today. Report after report has been telling us that PTSD is affecting 1 in 5 serving in Iraq--and that is expected to go as high as 1 in 3. These are not my numbers, but they come from the Veterans Administration, not a bastion of liberalism. How many more will have to commit suicide before this madness unleashed by BushCo ends? How many more will force someone else to kill them, as did Andreas Raya? How many more will come back and kill their families as what happened at Ft Brag? How many more will find themselves in the untenable position as does Sgt Kevin Benderman, his wife Monica, and the other 22 people in his unit, D Co., 3rd Forward Support Battalion, 2-7 Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division, that also refuse to go? How many more young men like Stu, who did 15 months in Iraq, will come home and within hours, drive their cars head first into a tree? How many more above the 5,500 that have already fled, will also feel compelled to flee the country rather than go to Iraq--to kill or be killed in a war that was of choice, not necessity--a war which was started behind lies, misinformation, disinformation and deception--how many more? A war which BushCo had planned even before 9/11--which was "used" to "sell" what had already been planned by BushCo and the Project for a New American Century. What is it going to take to wake this nation from its world of illusions, and tackle head on what is being done to this nation, it's citizens, and the people of Iraq due to what the Bush Brigade has unleashed upon the world? Or, does what is meant by the "support the troops" as articulated by the cheerleaders of the BushCo war of choice, only apply while they are in Iraq?--then it stops when those troops come home mental basket-cases looking to punish themselves--and in some cases kill themselves. While the Tsunami disaster is horrible, to say the least, there is still a “disaster” taking place in Iraq. People are dying in wholesale numbers there, mostly children, and now, like what happened when so many came back from Vietnam, even more will die when they come back home—and by their own hands. There is a solution—Bring Them Home Now! If you really want to support the troops, that is the way to do it—just Bring Them Home Now! We do not need, nor do we want any more incidents like with Andreas Raya—dead by their own hands as a result of the horrors of war. And bring them home we must! War is the cowards’ response to the perils of peace, and it is they, the cowards, who always send others to fight, kill and be killed in the wars they start. As a veteran, as an American citizen, I fully support those who refuse to deploy to this Bush Co war in Iraq. I remember years ago when so many Vietnam veterans came back and then killed themselves—we must not let this happen again! Jack Dalton is a disabled Vietnam veteran and coeditor of the web publication, the Project for the Old American Century [url="http://oldamericancentury.org/index.htm"]http://oldamericancentury.org/index.htm[/url] ==================================================== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 (edited) um, let me see here... they were sure ok with being in the armed forces when they were cashing those paychecks and taking those paid-for classes. Harsh, but I'm not without feeling for these people. As a military child I understand not wanting to go back, especially if you don't agree with it, but I also don't believe in biting the hand that feeds you and yours. If they didn't agree with going back or why they were there in the first place they should have just objected. Contientious (sp?) objector and all that rot, and they should have taken their licks in prison or wherever they would have been assigned for objecting. Not all objectors are placed in prison. Clearly these people needed help. There's plenty of help to be had in the community and in just about all religions. And in the armed forces. I will pray for their souls and for their families and for people who feel the same way they do, but I will not feel sorry for them, for they are in a situation they knew might be a possibility when they signed up for it. Edited January 13, 2005 by Kilroy the Ninja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamweaver Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Prayers for all our troops and their families. May they safetly return home. As sad as it is, I agree with Kilroy. One doesn't join the military just to get free college and other bonuses. There is always the possibility of war, and always the possibility of being called to serve your country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jan 13 2005, 01:44 AM'] um, let me see here... they were sure ok with being in the armed forces when they were cashing those paychecks and taking those paid-for classes. Harsh, but I'm not without feeling for these people. As a military child I understand not wanting to go back, especially if you don't agree with it, but I also don't believe in biting the hand that feeds you and yours. If they didn't agree with going back or why they were there in the first place they should have just objected. Contientious (sp?) objector and all that rot, and they should have taken their licks in prison or wherever they would have been assigned for objecting. Not all objectors are placed in prison. Clearly these people needed help. There's plenty of help to be had in the community and in just about all religions. And in the armed forces. I will pray for their souls and for their families and for people who feel the same way they do, but I will not feel sorry for them, for they are in a situation they knew might be a possibility when they signed up for it. [/quote] Thats the most disgusting response to this Ive seen. Instead of identitfying with the poor guy, you start babbling on about 'cheatin the system', 'stealing GOV money'. I dont think he should have had to kill himself, but then again Bush wants to continue with this terrorist act, another victim on Bushs and the Right-Wings hand. ===================================================== [quote]One doesn't join the military just to get free college and other bonuses. There is always the possibility of war, and always the possibility of being called to serve your country.[/quote] Who said he did it for that reason? Why should a soldier go to a place where his country is carrying out acts of terrorism, torture, starvation and genocide? Any soldier that deserts the US Forces, is a hero, to stand up against this terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I think the US Gov. is an evil institution. I think it's sad whenever anyone directly supports its continuance. I will pray for the soldier in question and for his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote]As sad as it is, I agree with Kilroy. One doesn't join the military just to get free college and other bonuses. There is always the possibility of war, and always the possibility of being called to serve your country.[/quote] Well, it would probably help if the recruiters didn't pretty up the benefits and totally ignore the realities of war when convincing people fresh out of [b]high school[/b], who shouldn't be making decisions of such magnitude in the first place, let alone without accurate information, to join the military. Recruiters outright lie to people about life in the military in order to get them to join. It's somewhat comparable to the false information and distortions given to young women about abortion. Any Catholic who thinks that young women should be given accurate information about abortion should also think that young men and women should be given accurate information about joining the military. That's what's called a [i]consistent ethic of life[/i] (which I know is a dirty word around here, I'm surprised the Phatmass filters don't change it to something else). And all Catholics should have compassion for those who commit suicide for whatever reason -- but especially those who have been through the hell of this war and don't want to go back to it. The lack of compassion in this thread is sickening and is more representative of American conservatism than of Roman Catholic Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 (edited) I don't think the US is evil cause I'm a "conservative." I think Conservatives (the Pope does not err EVER) and Liberals (the Church is purely human) are heretics. I just try to be an Orthodox Catholic, as such I believe this country is evil and find it very sad when the young are corrupted into supporting it. Edited January 13, 2005 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 13 2005, 02:58 AM'] Well, it would probably help if the recruiters didn't pretty up the benefits and totally ignore the realities of war when convincing people fresh out of [b]high school[/b], who shouldn't be making decisions of such magnitude in the first place, let alone without accurate information, to join the military. Recruiters outright lie to people about life in the military in order to get them to join. It's somewhat comparable to the false information and distortions given to young women about abortion. Any Catholic who thinks that young women should be given accurate information about abortion should also think that young men and women should be given accurate information about joining the military. That's what's called a [i]consistent ethic of life[/i] (which I know is a dirty word around here, I'm surprised the Phatmass filters don't change it to something else). And all Catholics should have compassion for those who commit suicide for whatever reason -- but especially those who have been through the hell of this war and don't want to go back to it. The lack of compassion in this thread is sickening and is more representative of American conservatism than of Roman Catholic Christianity. [/quote] *applause* Ive noticed MANY here are Right-Wingers, then CATHOLIC. Not Catholic then Political. Next election I dont think any Right-Wing will be voted in, they have really abused the power given to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 13 2005, 03:04 AM'] I don't think the US is evil cause I'm a "conservative." I think Conservatives (the Pope does not err EVER) and Liberals (the Church is purely human) are heretics. I just try to be an Orthodox Catholic, as such I believe this country is evil and find it very sad when the young are corrupted into supporting it. [/quote] I dont believe the US (People in General are Evil, like they're GOV) are evil, but the GOV, which keeps the population in ignorance is, and anyone that thinks outside the box, is labelled with names such as 'un-american', 'un-patriotic', 'traitor', 'left-winger (Like thats bad! )' etc. If they bothered to research outside they're comfort zone, like I did, you'd be horrified at the acts the US (GOV, Supported by the Ignorant) have committed against this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I have compassion for these people. I said I'd pray for them. And Phatmasser777, whoever you really are, I am Catholic first and not even American second, thanks. Yeah, that's me, a HUGE right-winger. Whatever. You people confuse too much with politics. In case you missed it in my first post, my family IS a military family. My father has already been to Iraq twice and to to Kuwait a few times. He didn't run away from his responsibilities or shirk his duties. My family has received numerous benefits from the military. Do I personally like the military? Not really. Which is why I personally did not join the armed forces. But even high school kids know why people in the military carry firearms. The cry of "I joined the armed forces to travel the world and because the recruiters made it sound so nice" is garbage. What would be nice to know is the whole picture. For example, when exactly did these unfortunate souls spoken of in the article join the military. Were they unstable before hand? Did they try to seek out help of any sort from any one? Did they try to object? I have great respect for people who stand up and say that war is not for them and then are willing to take the consequences. Gosh, standing up for what you really believe in and taking the consequences. Sounds awfully Catholic to me. But what would I know? I'm a hard core right-winger who's barely Catholic right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 I wasnt calling you a Right-Winger, if you bothered to read it. Also: "He didn't run away from his responsibilities or shirk his duties.", is that arrogance and backhanded judgmentalism? I think we have a winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Still whining about the American government. Maybe we should bring our 13,000 soldiers who are aiding tsunami victims home, maybe we should keep all our money? Or maybe we should only aid the victims who like us? Maybe we should ask if they like us and sign a paper stating this before we feed them? Those are the things you would expect of an evil government right? I suppose I wouldn't be horrified by actions taken by the irish or the brits or the canadian governments? They are made up of paragons of virtue correct? Governments are made up of sinners just like you and me. So to say you wish the government to fall or the government is evil, is to say many friends, neighbors and relations etc are evil people. Is that your intention? I was a govenment employee does that make me evil? My family has honorably served in the military for 300 years, so are we all evil? Do I like the military , not particularly. But if you sign up, you do the time , get help,or deal with the consequences. You expect Catholics to separate the sin from the sinner in other areas, why can't you do the same? You don't like blanket condemnation, but its ok for you to dish out? Yes there are "evil people" in government. Duh. There are "evil people" everywhere. Sometimes they seem to congregate in particular places [ like the Democratic party maybe?] oh but I can't say THAT can I? If the guy was mentally ill he needed help, and its sad he didn't have the courage to get it, or wasn't forced in to it. Nobody forced him to hurt himself. He and his family both need prayers. The liberal emotional rhetoric doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:33 AM'] I wasnt calling you a Right-Winger, if you bothered to read it. Also: "He didn't run away from his responsibilities or shirk his duties.", is that arrogance and backhanded judgmentalism? I think we have a winner [/quote] I didn't say YOU did, if you bothered to read it. Oh, so now I'm arrogant because I spoke the truth? Whatever. If you want to play that game, so are you for basking in the glow of your supposed righteousness. Backhanded judgmentalism? Hmmmm, let's see, THEY COMMITTED SUICIDE TO GET OUT OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES. I think they passed judgement on themselves there, which, from the Catholic Church point of view, is NOT ok. And yes, I am a winner. My video games tell me so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 13 2005, 03:31 AM'] [b]How Many More Will it Take—How Many More Will Have to Die?[/b] By: Jack Dalton 01/12/05 "ICH" -- Andreas Raya, a Marine that had been to Iraq once, and was scheduled to go back to Iraq a second time, has committed suicide--by forcing the police to shot him in front of a convince store in Ceres, Ca. According to his family, he was "different" when he came back from Iraq. He had changed. This is something that those of us that have seen war up close and personal know about. Seeing humanity at its worse does things to you, and it does not always go away. Sgt Kevin Benderman has refused re-deployment to Iraq. 22 others in Kevin's unit have also refused to deploy by either going AWOL, or, as with two, attempt suicide. After recovering from the suicide, “one of the two packed up his entire family and went AWOL”--this information was sent to me by Kevin’s wife, Monica earlier today. Report after report has been telling us that PTSD is affecting 1 in 5 serving in Iraq--and that is expected to go as high as 1 in 3. These are not my numbers, but they come from the Veterans Administration, not a bastion of liberalism. How many more will have to commit suicide before this madness unleashed by BushCo ends? How many more will force someone else to kill them, as did Andreas Raya? How many more will come back and kill their families as what happened at Ft Brag? How many more will find themselves in the untenable position as does Sgt Kevin Benderman, his wife Monica, and the other 22 people in his unit, D Co., 3rd Forward Support Battalion, 2-7 Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division, that also refuse to go? How many more young men like Stu, who did 15 months in Iraq, will come home and within hours, drive their cars head first into a tree? How many more above the 5,500 that have already fled, will also feel compelled to flee the country rather than go to Iraq--to kill or be killed in a war that was of choice, not necessity--a war which was started behind lies, misinformation, disinformation and deception--how many more? A war which BushCo had planned even before 9/11--which was "used" to "sell" what had already been planned by BushCo and the Project for a New American Century. What is it going to take to wake this nation from its world of illusions, and tackle head on what is being done to this nation, it's citizens, and the people of Iraq due to what the Bush Brigade has unleashed upon the world? Or, does what is meant by the "support the troops" as articulated by the cheerleaders of the BushCo war of choice, only apply while they are in Iraq?--then it stops when those troops come home mental basket-cases looking to punish themselves--and in some cases kill themselves. While the Tsunami disaster is horrible, to say the least, there is still a “disaster” taking place in Iraq. People are dying in wholesale numbers there, mostly children, and now, like what happened when so many came back from Vietnam, even more will die when they come back home—and by their own hands. There is a solution—Bring Them Home Now! If you really want to support the troops, that is the way to do it—just Bring Them Home Now! We do not need, nor do we want any more incidents like with Andreas Raya—dead by their own hands as a result of the horrors of war. And bring them home we must! War is the cowards’ response to the perils of peace, and it is they, the cowards, who always send others to fight, kill and be killed in the wars they start. As a veteran, as an American citizen, I fully support those who refuse to deploy to this Bush Co war in Iraq. I remember years ago when so many Vietnam veterans came back and then killed themselves—we must not let this happen again! Jack Dalton is a disabled Vietnam veteran and coeditor of the web publication, the Project for the Old American Century [url="http://oldamericancentury.org/index.htm"]http://oldamericancentury.org/index.htm[/url] ==================================================== [/quote] Give me a break. Anyone who commits suicide has issues far greater than going to Iraq. Most of these same people crying about our helping out Iraq are the same that support the murder of the unborn (4000+ per DAY!), destruction of the family, contraception, etc... Where was the outrage in Kosovo? There was none because it was 'their' guy in office. 2000 these same people wanted to do away with the electoral college, go by popular vote, and count illegal votes. 2004 these same people wanted to keep the electoral college and ignore popular vote. Because they only want what benefits them. If it doesn't benefit them then they cry about it. Their opions change like the wind and lack logic. How many more have to whine? The left has left a legacy of lies, half truths, and pure selfishness. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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