spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:10 AM'] people bowed down tothe ark of the covenant because God said He would dwell there to be with His people in way that was tangible to them. He then moved into a temple. After Christs sacrifice He made US His temple. Its wrong to make idols and statues and bow down to them. No different than the golden calf. [/quote] Catalyst - If I tore up a picture of your grandmother and spat on it, would you be upset? The picture isn't your grandmother, but it represents something very dear and very important to you. Have you ever been homesick and kissed a picture of your mother or father? Is it wrong to do so? Have you ever hugged or kissed an object that you associated with a loved one who had died? This is what we do with the statues of the saints. We honor them. We put flowers on them. We kiss them. We don't do this because we make Gods of the statues, we do this because for us, the physical, tangible, reminder of the saint moves us and causes a display of emotion within us. In some small way it allows us to feel as though that person is still with us. That is NOT idolatry. If you view that as idolatry then you had better start ripping up all of your photo albums right now. Edited January 14, 2005 by spathariossa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) To add to this, I think that for me, statues serve another important purpose. When I'm around a statue or icon, or wearing a crucifix or saint medal, I'm on my best behavior. I behave better and in a more Christian fashion than I might otherwise. This isn't because I believe God is there in the crucifix and not watching me all the time. Rather, it REMINDS me that He is watching me all the time and knows what I'm doing all the time. Furthermore, it is alot like putting on a uniform. When I wear a crucifix or a saint medal that someone can see, I realize that my actions represent all Christians whether I like it or not. The statues in icons in my room or in church help me to focus on prayer and be more diligent because they remind me that God is watching me. Edited January 14, 2005 by spathariossa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. If you have a discrepency with this...ask God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) and no, I would not be upset. More important things to get angry at. Id pray for you. Besides, I'm in th eprosess of disciplining myself with Gods help, not to get mad at people as our enemy isn't of flesh and blood but of powers and principalities. Edited January 14, 2005 by Catalyst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:45 AM'] and no, I would not be upset. More important things to get angry at. Id pray for you. Besides, I'm in th eprosess of disciplining myself with Gods help, not to get mad at people as our enemy isn't of flesh and blood but of powers and principalities. [/quote] The point isn't a contest of personal sin. I've used many Catholic spiritual warfare to eliminate anger myself. However, the matter is one of respect. Do I give that statue a gesture of respect or do I not? Well, I give it a gesture of respect not because I feel the STATUE deserves respect but because what it represents deserves respect. This is like a soldier saluting the American flag. To call it idolatry is to be devoid of common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:43 AM'] the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. If you have a discrepency with this...ask God. [/quote] Again. Showing respect and WORSHIPPING are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:43 AM'] the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. If you have a discrepency with this...ask God. [/quote] I'm curious if you have an issue with statues? Would you say there is nothing wrong with the statues if no one bowed before them? Being a convert to the church, it was odd to see statues of the saints at first, but these are no different than statues of Lincoln or Washington, or even pictures of people. The full context of the verses dealing with "graven images" seems to deal with people creating idols and worshipping them. While I haven't personally bowed before a statue, I see nothing wrong with a person showing respect in that manner. The statue is not the person, nor is the statue any kind of supernatual being or have any kind of power. The statue is a representation of the saint it is modeled after. For me, seeing that representation of the saint reminds me that ordinary people have the ability to do great things in the eyes of God. Anything that helps people to strive to become more holy should be a good thing in the eyes of God. If someone does worship a statue, then they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathqat Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 13 2005, 07:33 PM'] Interesting. But I'm sure the reviewer doesn't really understand the Eastern theological distinctions that he's supposedly "critiquing." [/quote] I did not see the original review, only the followup letter, but that does seem to be the problem. You could check it out in the library on campus, I'm sure, if you care to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathqat Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 12:43 AM'] the bible warns of making images and bowing down to them. [/quote] Scripture also supplies many examples of people bowing down in respect to angels, prophets, sacred art like the Ark of the Covenant, and other representatives of God [i]without[/i] any condemnation or rebuke. Idolatry is an act of the [i]will[/i], [i]not[/i] of the knees. In fact, Elisha even allows Naaman to bow before pagan idols without committing idolatry. Context is everything. Idolatry is not something visible to the eye, like making religious images or showing reverence to creatures. Idolatry is [i]exchanging[/i] the Creator for a creature, adoring a creature as God, rather than treating both the Creator and His creatures with the appropriate respect due each. Catholics do not adore anyone except God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you have a problem with that, your gripe is not with Catholics, but with scriptural precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 14 2005, 11:45 AM'] I did not see the original review, only the followup letter, but that does seem to be the problem. You could check it out in the library on campus, I'm sure, if you care to see it. [/quote] I couldn't find the information on their website, but if I have time I may look it up at the FUS library. Thanks for the tip. My directed study course will be on Palamas, and so I am collecting articles that touch on the doctrine of the uncreated energies, perhaps I'll include their article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 so did this get resolved yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Oik, some times it helps to read the whole thread. Nice Avatar BTW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 It seems that there are those that have not responded as though this thread has reached it's finality...that's why I asked, so bleeeeehhhhh to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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