Catalyst Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 is Mary God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Do you ask silly questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 when you say the rosary you chant pointless prayers. Praying to her even before you pray to God. Either you worship and pray to the soveriegn God, or you don't. Read the bible for yourselves....PLEASE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Theres a huge difference between praying to a Saint for intercession and praying to a Saint as God. If you can't differentiate, then I do not see the point in this debate. In the Hail Mary, we pray 'pray for us sinners', a clear example of praying to Her as an intercessor and not as a God figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 It is unfortunate how much the non-Catholic mind is dominated by the "either/or" mentality especially on this particular issue. Far from being an obstacle of prayer or worship, a complete and teleologically consistent understanding of God will always include a deep sense of awe and reverence for His saints, the "cloud of witnesses". For the saint is the perfected and completed work of Christ. The saint is for the Catholic a witness to God's awesomeness and prescence in our lives. The iconoclasm which seeks to remove the saint from the heart of the believer is just a further attempt to de-personalize and de-mystify the greatness of God. Indeed, the greatest gift of the Church is her saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I'd say the greatest gift is the chance at Heaven, or maybe the Eucharist... I wouldn't say the Saints. They're definately one of the greatest gifts on the path to that though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 (edited) Yes, of course. But I was attempting to draw a distinction as I said [i]gift of the Church[/i]. The saint is the unique gift from the Church, while heaven and the eucharist are gifts directly from God to believers. All is from God of course, but I was mainly making a literary/poetic distinction I guess, for the sake of the argument too. Edited January 29, 2005 by Justified Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 (edited) God has an either or mentality aswell. He talk about a lukewarm Christian being foolish. Its best to be either hot or cold. No its, not to "de-mystify" the greatness of God but to magnify make it even more personal. Its why Christ died, alive in Christ means to once again be connected with God. Your praying to dead people. this goes back to deuteronomy. The saint is a gift of the church? Get out of here with that. We are only able to call ourselves righteous because of Christ. Did know that you are the temple, God doesn't dwell in any buildings anymore, He made it so He could live in you and you in Him. Reconciliation is the Gift of God. His love, His grace, and the Holy Spirits communion are His greatests gifts......read the bible. Meiditate on it...... we protestants honour the saints by thinking on their lives aswell as their words. We gain knowledge and after a time we gain wisdom from the the words written by their hand, however inspired by the Holy Spirit inside them. God is a jealous God, remember that, he wants you seek Him with ALL your heart, before friends and family, before the apostles of God. Edited January 29, 2005 by Catalyst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 29 2005, 05:11 PM'] we protestants [/quote] [color=red]Hello I do not rep the Church? [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 28 2005, 11:14 PM'] when you say the rosary you chant pointless prayers. [/quote] The Rosary is not a chant. [quote]Praying to her even before you pray to God.[/quote] The first words of the Rosary are: "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen Our Father, who art in heaven; hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Amen." [quote]Either you worship and pray to the soveriegn God, or you don't.[/quote] Catholics do. [quote]Read the bible for yourselves....PLEASE![/quote] [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=28146"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=28146[/url] So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot." Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. (Acts 8:27-31). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 [quote]No its, not to "de-mystify" the greatness of God but to magnify make it even more personal. Its why Christ died, alive in Christ means to once again be connected with God. Your praying to dead people. this goes back to deuteronomy. [/quote] Those "dead people" are a lot more alive in Christ than we are. It is sad how so many Protestants have kicked the saints out of the body of Christ. Those souls who are timeless examples of the love of Christ and who dwell in the glory of the Lord are still our brothers and sisters. Without an understanding of reverence for the saints, the work and glory of Christ is dangerously close to being undermined. [quote]The saint is a gift of the church? Get out of here with that. We are only able to call ourselves righteous because of Christ. Did know that you are the temple, God doesn't dwell in any buildings anymore, He made it so He could live in you and you in Him. Reconciliation is the Gift of God. His love, His grace, and the Holy Spirits communion are His greatests gifts......read the bible. Meiditate on it......[/quote] Thus the saint is the living temple of righteouseness and Christ. I agree. [quote]we protestants honour the saints by thinking on their lives aswell as their words. We gain knowledge and after a time we gain wisdom from the the words written by their hand, however inspired by the Holy Spirit inside them. God is a jealous God, remember that, he wants you seek Him with ALL your heart, before friends and family, before the apostles of God. [/quote] Yes, watered down Catholic spirituality. That is what most of Protestantism is anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 [quote name='Justified Saint' date='Jan 29 2005, 06:05 PM'] Those "dead people" are a lot more alive in Christ than we are. It is sad how so many Protestants have kicked the saints out of the body of Christ. Those souls who are timeless examples of the love of Christ and who dwell in the glory of the Lord are still our brothers and sisters. Without an understanding of reverence for the saints, the work and glory of Christ is dangerously close to being undermined. Thus the saint is the living temple of righteouseness and Christ. I agree. Yes, watered down Catholic spirituality. That is what most of Protestantism is anyway. [/quote] Agreed. Besides, other than the apostles can protestants even name any saints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 watered down? Are there signs and wonders goin on in your church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 1 Timothy 2 Instructions on Worship 1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone– 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle–I am telling the truth, I am not lying–and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN.....what more needs to be said...time to repent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) undermined because we don't ask for the saints to pray for us, to mediate for us? Please, we respect and honour what many men and woman of God have done. If you walk in righteousness, your a saint too...Jesus said we would do even greater works than He. Do you walk in power? Do you believe you can? Do you know how this is made possible? Edited January 31, 2005 by Catalyst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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