DojoGrant Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I especially loved the part about how Catholics bow to popular opinion. That's why we condemn contraception. Cause we're a democracy who bows to the will of the people. Oh wait. I was thinking about most Protestant churches. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) so Mary was born without sin? Where in scripture is this? People born to a man and a woman are born into sin. If God wanted to make people with out sin...whats the point of Christ? If Mary parents are guilty of sin, she is. If her ancestors are guilty of sin, so is she. Christ was the sacrifice for both women and man. To support your views Mary would have had to spill Her blood aswell to co-incide with how God wanted sacrifice done according to His covenant. Its why we call Christ the lamb of God. We don't call Mary that and I don't disresepct Mary as she was a woman of God and blesed among women because she was about to carry the messiah. Truley a blessing. Back to this from about a month ago... Edited January 14, 2005 by Catalyst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:05 PM'] so Mary was born without sin? Where in scripture is this? People born to a man and a woman are born into sin. If God wanted to make people with out sin...whats the point of Christ? If Mary parents are guilty of sin, she is. If her ancestors are guilty of sin, so is she. Christ was the sacrifice for both women and man. To support your views Mary would have had to spill Her blood aswell to co-incide with how God wanted sacrifice done according to His covenant. Its why we call Christ the lamb of God. We don't call Mary that and I don't disresepct Mary as she was a woman of God and blesed among women because she was about to carry the messiah. Truley a blessing. Back to this from about a month ago... [/quote] Even if we weren't born with original sin, Christ is necessary for our redemption as we commit sins of our own free will. Second, Mary wouldn't have to have been sacrificed because she was sinless. Christ is the necessary and sufficient sacrifice. Also, we Catholics don't call Mary the lamb of God. Also, I find it ironic that many protestants can't accept even the possibility that Mary was born without sin (or many other Catholic principles which are obvious to most people here) because it would require some extraordinary action on God's part (aka a miracle), yet Christ's birth, death, and resurrections were all miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 nor do i think ill of the prophets, disciples, and apostles of God as they hunger for God and submitted themselves to His will. The roman church loves signs such as stigmatas and such. Jesus' miracles where those of healing and those that were examples of Gods love. I see homosexual bishops, I see a messed up state for alot of churches claiming to represent Christ. Even in the the protestant side too, but some people tend to think their opinion matters more than Gods. Churches than become a place of relative truth, but christ said there is only one truth. Scripture.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 no Christ wasn't, because God gave us free will, and we still have free will. Its part of Gods love, what kinda love is it if He controls you? Christ was necessarry because of the original sin. Its was Gods way of reconciliation even tho He never did a thing wrong. He loves you that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Catalyst, Your argument doesn't hold any water because Christ received his full humanity from Mary, and you just argued that people with sinful parents have sinful children. Therefore, Jesus had original sin. But you don't believe that, so you already don't believe the argument you just made, not without being a contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 03:19 PM'] Churches than become a place of relative truth, but christ said there is only one truth. Scripture.... [/quote] Oh, Jesus said that? Where? That's right. Nowhere. He never said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Guys, I think we're dealing with a troll here. Let's not feed him anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 03:19 PM'] I see homosexual bishops, I see a messed up state for alot of churches claiming to represent Christ. Even in the the protestant side too, but some people tend to think their opinion matters more than Gods. Churches than become a place of relative truth, but christ said there is only one truth. Scripture.... [/quote] People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ... I've known plenty of Protestant ministers whose sexual behaviors were ... less than stellar. Tell me something: If there is only one truth, how do you know what it is? If you're saying it's Scripture, how do you account for the thousands of different interpretations of Scripture in Protestant churches? Which one of them is right? Is it [i]your [/i]interpretation that's right? If so, on what authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 nope, cuz Christ was born of spirit, not conceived by naturel means. This requires some thought tho...meditate on the word a lil bit. You guys have somenice words...dealing with a troll? so quick to call names? I ask you, in the catholic church, tons of form, but no power? why is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 This thread is following a predictiable pattern. Start with a question for Catholics. The question gets answered by Catholics. The non-Catholic poster gets upset and changes to a different subject, taking the attitude that the first question was never answered. By the end of it, we've talked about nearly every conceivable doctrine, and then the cycle repeats, as if nothing was ever said and the Catholics have said nothing intelligent at all. I'm certainly not saying this of all Protestants. I'm simply saying I've seen it a lot, especially at BaptistBoard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 anyways, nice talkin with you all. I headin on a retreat to spend time with God and to focus on Him. Love and blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:32 PM'] nope, cuz Christ was born of spirit, not conceived by naturel means. This requires some thought tho...meditate on the word a lil bit. You guys have somenice words...dealing with a troll? so quick to call names? I ask you, in the catholic church, tons of form, but no power? why is this? [/quote] I'm just saying that this thread has degenerated away from a debate and has turned into a bunch of false accusations being flung at the Catholic Church with no real basis. We can debate here, but let us do it in a more organized format with statements that can be backed up. Also, let's stick to a single topic and not make false cheap shots like "homosexual bishops." Edited January 14, 2005 by 1337 k4th0l1x0r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 03:32 PM'] nope, cuz Christ was born of spirit, not conceived by naturel means. This requires some thought tho...meditate on the word a lil bit. You guys have somenice words...dealing with a troll? so quick to call names? I ask you, in the catholic church, tons of form, but no power? why is this? [/quote] 1) Was Christ fully human or was He not? Did he receive all of His humanity from a human, or did He not? I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I don't deny that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. We recite this in the Creed. That doesn't preclude the fact that His humanity came from Mary, and it was Mary who gave Him all of His human nature. 2) It's frustrating to talk to a person who asks questions and then moves, never submitting that the question was answered by people kind enough to respond in depth, but simply moving to another question while continuing to antagonize the people who are taking the time to help you by responding! That's typically called a "troll" on the board, because they don't really want answers. People who want answers are polite when they get them, regardless of whether or not it agrees with their own theology. 3) I have no idea what this question means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathqat Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 03:05 PM']so Mary was born without sin?[/quote] Well, just for the record, everyone is born without personal, actual sins. But Catholics believe that Mary had something more: that God gave her the grace of divine life, which we Christians receive later in life, at the first moment of her existence. [quote]Where in scripture is this?[/quote] It is implied in many passages, like the use of the unique title [i]kecharitomene[/i]. [quote]People born to a man and a woman are born into sin.[/quote] The rest of us are born without the grace of divine life, yes. [quote]If God wanted to make people with out sin...whats the point of Christ?[/quote] First of all, God [i]did[/i] make humans without sin. Humans were first created without sin, and were never supposed to commit it. Second, the point of Christ's mission is salvation: to save us all from sin, to save us into the grace of eternal life in God. We do not believe that Mary was not saved by Christ--just the opposite: [i]she was saved from all sin[/i], from the first moment of her existence, [i]by Christ[/i]. [quote]If Mary parents are guilty of sin, she is.[/quote] No one is born guilty of actual sin. Lacking the grace of divine life, yes. Guilty of actual sin, no. [quote]Christ was the sacrifice for both women and man.[/quote] Yes. So? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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