a light in the darkness

[cathqat]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 12 2005, 12:33 AM'] prayer is a form of worship, praise is a form of worship. [/quote]
"Prayer" means nothing more or less than "ask, request." If you ask your brother to drive you to the store, you're [i]praying to[/i] your brother. If you ask your daughter to take out the trash, you're [i]praying to[/i] your daughter. Asking people to do things is not the same thing as worshipping them. But "ask" is all the word means. If you have difficulty comprehending this, try reading some of the King James Version. Almost all the questions are preceded or followed by by the phrase "I pray you...," no matter who is being addressed.

Nor is "praise" always a form of worship. When a mother extols her son's painting skills, she is [i]praising[/i] him. When a girl writes a report about why she respects Susan B. Anthony, she is [i]praising[/i] her. When a man pats his dog on the head and says "good boy!" he is [i]praising[/i] the dog. No worship is even remotely implied by any of these actions.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 13 2005, 12:49 AM'] homosexual priests... I have an early morning. God Bless. [/quote]
Where are practicing homosexual priests promulgated as a doctrine of the Catholic Church?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 13 2005, 01:36 AM']


i could be wrong but doesn't the vatican have golden toilets? [/quote]


You are wrong about almost eveything you think the Church teaches or believes but this is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time.

iF you believe that I have a bridge I can sell you in Brooklyn.

[peach_cube]

Beachfront property for sale in the everglades...cheap.

[Catalyst]

what does Hebrews 11 tell you?

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist OR who CONSULTS the dead.


the def'n of consult-verb: seek information from

the bible said ..OR who CONSULTS the DEAD. Where did you get manipulate the dead from there?


def'n of dead-noun: people who are no longer living

instead of asking to John to ask Mary to pass along a message to Jesus. You should realise there is no mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ.

1Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,



6. MARY - MOTHER OF CHRIST, MOTHER OF THE CHURCH

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501




Where did this man get all this??? Pretty significant stuff to leave out of the bible.
Don't say another book outside of the bible is acceptable. This is no different the book of mormon creating doctrine from one verse.

MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 The Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517

IN BRIEF

973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was al ready collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15).

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 13 2005, 11:50 PM'] what does Hebrews 11 tell you?

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist OR who CONSULTS the dead.


the def'n of consult-verb: seek information from

the bible said ..OR who CONSULTS the DEAD. Where did you get manipulate the dead from there?


def'n of dead-noun: people who are no longer living

instead of asking to John to ask Mary to pass along a message to Jesus. You should realise there is no mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ.

1Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,



6. MARY - MOTHER OF CHRIST, MOTHER OF THE CHURCH

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501




Where did this man get all this??? Pretty significant stuff to leave out of the bible.
Don't say another book outside of the bible is acceptable. This is no different the book of mormon creating doctrine from one verse.

MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 The Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517

IN BRIEF

973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was al ready collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15). [/quote]
Firstly: We don't seek information from the saints. So even if they were dead (which they aren't) we are not consulting them. I've never once said "Oh dear St. Jeanne, please tell me the answer to this test question."

Secondly, you are completely and utterly wrong if you don't think Mary being the Virgin mother of God is scriptural. That's what she is. You are completely wrong if you don't think Mary and Jesus were united. He lived inside of her for 9 months! How much more united can you get?

The problem with all of you Protestants is you have no respect for the Virgin Mary. Frankly, it sickens me. She bore God the Word, the Son of Man in her womb for 9 months. The holy spirit went inside of her to make Jesus man. This all happened INSIDE of Mary. Have you ever even thought about that? Have you ever even thought about the special bond between Mother and Son? Have you considered the archangel Gabriel's greeting, "Hail Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with thee"??

If you argue against the Virgin Mary it only shows your complete and utter ignorance on the life of Jesus Christ, and on motherhood in general. The Orthodox church calls her the Theotokos - the God-Bearer. This is literally what she did, she carried around God for 9 months. She gave birth to God. She nursed God on her breast. She raised God and changed God's dirty diapers. She took God to the temple. She watched and cried and suffered as God suffered on the cross. She rejoiced and shared in God's resurrection. You'd have to be insane not to recognize the Virgin Mary for all that she did and all that she went through. You'd have to be insane to think that there isn't a special bond between God the Father who spoke to her, God the Son who was born in her, and God the Holy Spirit who was put inside of her. She is the MOTHER OF GOD. A parent figure to God. That is why she is a Mother to every Christian. We are Sons and Daughters of God the Father. She is Mother of God the Son. So isn't she our Mother too?

Furthermore, I find it ironic that you can quote one piece of scripture ad infinitum. You say over and over again, there is one mediator between God and the people. How can you even begin to justify taking one line of what a man who had never even met Jesus in the flesh said and put it above all that we know from the writings of HIS disciples about HIS mother? That's nonsensical. That's beyond nonsensical. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

I have a question for you: are all protestants so lacking in common sense?

[hyperdulia again]

why is this idiot tolerated? i mean seriously?

[Catalyst]

wow, haven't you heard those who call a man a fool are in danger of the fires of hell?

If your Christian, wheres the love?



its says in there the virgin Mary was still a virgin even after birth..even at the time of her "assupmtion"(exactly what that is, an assupmtion) into heaven. A baby comming out of the womb would break hymen. Also, ever heard of James?

Mary free of the adamic sin before the cross? How is this possible? What was the point of Gods sacrifice on the cross?

Edited January 14, 2005 by Catalyst

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 01:43 AM'] wow, haven't you heard those who call a man a fool are in danger of the fires of hell?

If your Christian, wheres the love?



its says in there the virgin Mary was still a virgin even after birth..even at the time of her "assupmtion"(exactly what that is, an assupmtion) into heaven. A baby comming out of the womb would break hymen. Also, ever heard of James?

Mary free of the adamic sin before the cross? How is this possible? What was the point of Gods sacrifice on the cross? [/quote]
Ok. Speak in complete sentences and I will reply to you. I'm not trying to be rude but I don't even really know exactly what you just said.

[hyperdulia again]

I have, but according to my private interpretation of scripture unless I actually call you "Raca," I am fine and dandy.

[Catalyst]

How could mary be free of the adamic sin before the cross?
how is this possible? any reason would make the sacrifice on the cross pointless.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 03:43 AM']



its says in there the virgin Mary was still a virgin even after birth..even at the time of her "assupmtion"(exactly what that is, an assupmtion) into heaven. A baby comming out of the womb would break hymen. Also, ever heard of James?

Mary free of the adamic sin before the cross? How is this possible? What was the point of Gods sacrifice on the cross? [/quote]
Being a virgin means you haven't had sex.
Mary didn't have sex with the Holy Spirit.

James is not the physical brother of Jesus. In Jewish kinship , cousins are called brothers, since Aramaic doesn't have a word for cousins. Remember the bible is a TRANSLATION.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 13 2005, 11:50 PM']what does Hebrews 11 tell you?[/quote]

It's all praise for the faith of the holy ones who went before us!

[quote]Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist OR who CONSULTS the dead.
the def'n of consult-verb:  seek information from[/quote]

(A) The holy ones in Christ are [i]not dead[/i]; they are [i]alive to God[/i], as Jesus himself says, and therefore alive to us, members of the same body of Christ as we are.
(B) Catholics do not seek any information from the holy ones in heaven, so your accusation does not work on those grounds either.

[quote]def'n of dead-noun:  people who are no longer living[/quote]

Correct. And as Jesus clearly says, that does NOT apply to the holy ones who have preceded us in faith: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for [b]to him all are alive[/b]."

[quote]instead of asking to John to ask Mary to pass along a message to Jesus. You should realise there is no mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. 1Timothy 2:5[/quote]

Way to rip a verse completely out of context. Here's the whole passage:

"[i]I urge[/i], then, first of all, [i]that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone[/i]– for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. [i]This is good, and pleases God our Savior[/i], who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time. And [i]for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle[/i]–I am telling the truth, I am not lying–and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles."

Jesus' singular mediation does not condemn or forbid intercessory prayer. Just the opposite: Jesus unique mediation makes intercessory prayer good and effective.

[quote]"Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. 'The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head.' 'Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church.'"

Where did this man get all this???[/quote]

The Bible clearly calls Mary the mother of Jesus in numerous passages. The Bible says that the mother of the Messiah is also the mother of "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus," namely us Christians, the Church.

Do you have some kind of problem with Scripture?

[cathqat]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 14 2005, 01:43 AM']Also, ever heard of James?[/quote]

More than one James, in fact. I used to share a house with a guy named James. What's your point?

[quote]Mary free of the adamic sin before the cross? How is this possible?[/quote]

It means God applied the merits of Christ's salvific work to Mary from the first moment of her existence. In other words, Christ's redemptive work saved Mary from original sin at her conception just as it saves us from actual sin now. God is able to save people whenever he wants because he is not subject to time.

[DojoGrant]

Are we seriously basing our knowledge of the Catholic Church on the movie Luther? I've seen the movie twice. I actually rather enjoy it. Pope Leo X, pray for his soul, was not the best of men; I think that's plainly obvious. Teztel took things too far. No one has hid that. And I enjoyed that the movie not only portrayed Luther's Father and mentor in the monastery as a devout Catholic who could not follow Luther's conclusions to their extreme end, how Germany wanted to leave Rome to, and I quote, keep "German money in the German Church," and how Luther was a conscious-ridden man who could not comperehend God's mercy, despite the fact that his own confessor said he never confessed anything remotely interesting.

Yet the movie heroicized nun's forsaking their vows they made before God, the freedom of Biblical interpretation despite its consequences (like the Peasant's Revolt), made religion freedom the focus point of the German princes when it was rather political freedom they sought, and pretended that a German New Testament was an invention of Luther.

It was a good, but flawed, movie. Heck, it was produced by Thrivent, a Lutheran insurance company.