Hmmmm.

[Quietfire]

I was hoping to find an strong defense against a particular verse. I heard it used in a way against anything that the person didnt want to listen to.


Romans 3:4 Of course not! God must be true, though every human being is a liar, as it is written: "That you may be justified in your words, and conquer when you are judged."

Especially the 'human being is a liar' part.
You know, whenever an arguement or debate or even a simple discussion doesnt go the way he wants, his response is always, "Well, man is a liar-it says so in the Bible" meaning basically he is calling me a liar and therefore shouldnt be trusted.

This is a lousy defense, yeah. But when I started trying to figure it out in its proper context, I think I got confused more.

Any help would be great.
Thank you pham.

Edited January 10, 2005 by Quietfire

[Tink]

Romans 2:3-5
3- What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4- By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, "That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged." 5- But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say?

I believe your friend takes this passage all too literally, and far out of context. The emphasis in saying this is making it clear that [b]even though the beings God created are full of sin, God Himself is not.[/b] God will always remain true in a world full of sin, unwavering though the word of man may fail. What this passage is saying is a generalization, not literally saying all men are liars (though all men with original sin are bound to tell a lie at some point). God's qualities are in no correlation with our own, and though we are sinful, changing beings, he remains perfect and constant.

I'm curious, since your friend is so meticulous with the literal meanings of Scripture... what would he say is the rule on forgiveness? After all, the Lord said to forgive 70 times seven times... is one only to forgive his brother 490 times? I believe, when put like that, his argument sounds ridiuclous. You may want to seek clarification from phatcatholic or anyone well-read in the Word, though!

Hope this helped a bit!
Ad majorem Dei gloriam!
-Erin

[phatcatholic]

tink pretty much nailed it

another point may be helpful tho. whenever you have a question about any verse, always look at the original language (greek or hebrew) and how other versions translate the verse. both methods often shed light on new ways to understand a verse.

for instance, by way of the KJV NT Greek Lexicon, we find that the greek word here for "liar" is yeuvsthß, transliterated as [i]pseustes[/i]. it can have the following meanings:

1. a liar
2. one who breaks faith
3. a false and faithless man


we also see that not all the bible translations are in agreement on which definition should be attributed to this greek word:

[b]NRS:[/b] By no means! Although everyone is a [b]liar[/b], let God be proved true, as it is written, "So that you may be justified in your words, and prevail in your judging."
[b]RSV:[/b] By no means! Let God be true though every man be [b]false[/b], as it is written, "That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged."
[b]DRV:[/b] But God is true and every man a [b]liar[/b], as it is written: That thou mayest be justified in thy words and mayest overcome when thou art judged.
[b]KJV:[/b] God forbid *: yea, let God be true, but every man a [b]liar[/b]; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
[b]NAS:[/b] May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a [b]liar[/b], as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."


from the possible meanings of the word, as well as the context of the verse, i think we find that man is a liar not so much b/c he tells lies but b/c he is not filled with truth--as God is. that is the point of this verse (as Tink illustrated). lets see it again, in context:

[b]Rom 3:1-10[/b] (KJV)
[b]1 [/b]What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[b]2 [/b]Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[b]3 [/b]For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[b]4 [/b]God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
[b]5 [/b]But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
[b]6 [/b]God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
[b]7 [/b]For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
[b]8 [/b]And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
[b]9 [/b]What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;


what we have here is a hypothetical dialogue between a jew and paul. the jew is trying to claim that, since he is of God's chosen people, he can sin w/o this being accredited to him as unrighteousness and he can also claim that he is better than the gentile. he claims this also b/c, if the justice and mercy of God is revealed thru his sin, how can he be found erroneous? what paul says in reply is that, while God is indeed forever faithful and true despite our sin, the jew must still see his sin as having a negative consequence and that he must not elevate himself above the gentile. afterall, "for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin" (Rom 3:9).

that is the context of verse 3, and we must understand this verse as it exists w/in this context. if we strip it from its context then we will only come to apply it in ways it was not intended, as your opponent has done.

i hope this helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited January 10, 2005 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

btw, the context of this chapter is also helpful in understanding the next few verses, which protestants often attempt to use against the sinlessness of mary:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[Quietfire]

Very helpful.
Does anyone mind if some of your words are used in the debate?

Pax

[phatcatholic]

i don't mind.

you may wish to paraphrase as much as possible tho, just b/c its helpful as far as your own learning is concerned to be able to conceptualize what has been presented here and make it your own.