Question to FORMER Catholics and ICTHUS

[mulls]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jan 15 2005, 08:24 PM'] No, he doesn't. Stop encouraging him. [/quote]


hahahahahahahahhaha


wow that was so blatant

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jan 15 2005, 09:19 PM'] I didn't say the Gospels. I said the Holy Gospel. The content of the Gospel message - what a man must do to be saved.

[/quote]
First off, if you are not infallible YOU could be wrong about the message of the Gospel.

The Catholic Church takes every verse into account... whereas you have ignored verses.


[quote]Romanism has anathematized this message of salvation. At least I have never heard a sermon on how to be saved from a Papist pulpit.[/quote]

The Catholic Church doesn't give sermons... we have Homilies.

Because you have never heard it makes it so it's never been said right?
LOL no bro.

You either didn't pay attention in Mass or where not in Mass.

I have heard it many many times.



[b]Acts 15:11[/b]
On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they


[b]St. Matt 16:24[/b]
[b]19 [/b]Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me.
[b]25 [/b]For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
[b]26 [/b]What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
[b]27 [/b]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.


[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[b]St. Matt 10:22 [/b]
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.



Someone wrote to me:
"I mean ... he was Catholic long enough to know that Catholics do none of what he accuses the Church of."

I replied that was one of the reasons I do not believe you where ever Catholic.




[b]And now for the Catechism.... PLEASE note the footnotes - I will not respond to things that are covered here.[/b]


[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url]

This is just a small portion of it... to fully understand it you will have to read more. This little bit proves that your attacks on the Church are wrong.

If you are going to hate the Catholic Church - at least hate it for what it REALLY teaches.



[b]1949 [/b]
Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.[color=blue]1[/color]

...


[b]1987 [/b]
The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:[color=blue]34[/color]

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.[color=blue]35[/color]

[b]1996 [/b]
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[color=blue]46[/color]

[b]1997 [/b]
Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

[b]1998 [/b]
This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.[color=blue]47[/color]

[b]1999 [/b]
The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:[color=blue]48[/color]

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
....

[b]2005 [/b]
Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.[color=blue]56 [/color]However, according to the Lord's words—"Thus you will know them by their fruits"[color=blue]57[/color]—reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.


A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"[color=blue]58[/color]


[b]III. Merit[/b]


You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.[color=blue]59[/color]

[b]2006 [/b]
The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.


[b]2007 [/b]
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.


[b]2008 [/b]
The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

....

[b]2011 [/b]
[b][u][i]The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God[/i][/u][/b]. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.


After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.[color=blue]63[/color]



[color=blue]1.) [/color]Phil 2:12-13.
[color=blue]34.)[/color] Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4.
[color=blue]35.) [/color]Rom 6:8-11.
[color=blue]46.)[/color] Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.
[color=blue]47.) [/color]Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9.
[color=blue]48.) [/color]Cf. Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.
[color=blue]56.)[/color] Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534.
[color=blue]57.)[/color] Mt 7:20.
[color=blue]58.)[/color] Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc.
[color=blue]59.)[/color] Roman Missal, Prefatio I de Sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.
[color=blue]63.)[/color] St. Thérèse of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.





God Bless.

Edited January 16, 2005 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='mulls' date='Jan 15 2005, 09:42 PM']

hahahahahahahahhaha


wow that was so blatant


[/quote]
But true...

It's not me that Rocks....


The Catholic Church ROCKS! Kephas baby... Kephas.


God Bless

[bookwyrm]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 15 2005, 08:52 PM'] The Catholic Church ROCKS!


[/quote]
My mistake . . . so true.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I think this is the point where he quietly leaves.

Or he gets upset and challenges someone to a faith and works thread that gets no where.

And or he never addresses the miracle issues.


That's definitely one that's got me thinkin I admit.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jan 15 2005, 10:04 PM'] That's definitely one that's got me thinkin I admit.    [/quote]

Thank you for sharing that with us.

[url="http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/"]http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/index.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/index.htm[/url]



I've been looking for the film taken that day... October 13, 1917. I have seen in before, when I was a kid. This was before trick photography, when film was silent and young. 70,000 + witnesses back up the film. If anyone knows where I can purchase this, please let me know. It's the original footage, not a reinactment. They also had a lot of video of the children....
Grown men could not move them.
They put thin steel through their hands without leaving a mark

People wanted a greater sign, so the children told them when and where Mother Mary would appear... and she did. The Miracle of the Sun, 0ct. 13, 1917.


To many miracles and everything adding up... if it was just one or two things, then it could be coincidence, but when there are hundreds of things adding up...it's not by chance... especially with Fatima and St. Pio as just two of the hundreds of things adding up.



God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited January 16, 2005 by ironmonk

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Been looking for that film too. Can't find it online...

[Cranmer's Own]

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaack. Mods, feel free to smite me if I get snippy. I'm going to attempt to be scholarly and nice and all that jazz.

[quote]First off, if you are not infallible YOU could be wrong about the message of the Gospel.[/quote] That's why you [i]never [/i]absolutize human exegesis.

[quote]The Catholic Church takes every verse into account... whereas you have ignored verses.[/quote] Which ones?

[quote] The Catholic Church doesn't give sermons... we have Homilies.[/quote] My mistake - Anglicans call them that as well. Though does it really matter what you call 'an explanation of Scripture intended to help a person apply it to their lives?"

[quote]Because you have never heard it makes it so it's never been said right?
LOL no bro. [/quote] No - I never said that. But at the same time, I have heard that message from plenty of Protestant pulpits. Never Roman Catholic ones though - which leads me to the conclusion that the Roman Catholic Church does not want men to be saved, or teaches a false soteriology.

[quote]You either didn't pay attention in Mass or where not in Mass.[/quote] No, I paid plenty of attention. I heard plenty of sermons on how to live a moral life, how to love one's neighbor - all good and worthy things that are integral to the Christian life. However, I never heard a homily on HOW TO BE SAVED. I was never exhorted to place all my trust in Jesus, and Him alone, for the forgiveness of my sins. I was told to pray to Mary, Joseph, everybody else in Heaven for that matter to help me avoid sins, and to go to a priest when I messed up. I was never told, however "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus Christ is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" you will be saved.". In short, I was never told the message of salvation by grace alone, apart from works, through faith working in love as the alone instrument of justification, based on Scripture as the final authority, based on the atoning work of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. I was taught that by some synergy of my works and God's grace, I would make it to Heaven. THis is anti-Biblical.

My priest [i]denied[/i] that God's grace is sufficent to get us to Heaven. I asked him "Is God's grace sufficent to ensure that we reach Heaven" and he said "No!" If this is not semi-Pelagianism, I don't know what is.

[quote][b]Acts 15:11[/b]
On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they[/quote] I do not deny that Rome teaches the necessity of grace for salvation. I maintain, however, that she denies its [i]sufficency, [/i] thus asserting semi-Pelagianism and partial salvation by works.

[quote][b]St. Matt 16:24[/b]
[b]19 [/b]Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me.
[b]25 [/b]For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
[b]26 [/b]What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
[b]27 [/b]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.[/quote]

I do not deny that we must take up our cross and follow Christ. Nor do I deny that we must 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling'

[color=blue]12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. [/color]

Notice, however, that it says [b]for it is God who works in you[/b] to will and to act, however. God is the Prime Mover, the Sovereign king who ordains all of our actions - who causes us to will and to act, according to His good purpose.

[quote][b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
      So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. [/quote] Yes...and?


[quote][b]St. Matt 10:22 [/b]
    You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. [/quote] I never denied that we must persevere to the end. Have you even been reading what I've been writing since I've reformed?

[quote]1949
Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.1[/quote] The language here is not strong enough. Man is not wounded, he is [b]dead. [/b] (Eph 2:1-10) Also, Divine Help does not come to Him in the Law. The Law is revealed not to take away sin, but to act as our disciplinarian - it reveals sin, death, God's wrath, and Hell. The GOSPEL, however, reveals God's mercy in Christ.

[quote][b]1987 [/b]
The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:[color=blue]34[/color]

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.[color=blue]35[/color][/quote] I do not agree with the tying together of Romans 3:22 and 6:1-4. But this has to do with Sacramentology. Perhaps we should start another thread to discuss that, then?

[quote][b]1996 [/b]
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[color=blue]46[/color][/quote] Yes, but it is more than that. It is the translation from death to life, the handing down of the sentence "Not Guilty!" to a wicked sinner deserving only Death.

[quote][b]1997 [/b]
Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.[/quote] Erg. I don't know what to say of this. I haven't studied enough as to what grace actually is. I hope you'll forgive my ignorance and my bowing out of this one.
[quote][b]1998 [/b]
This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.[color=blue]47[/color][/quote] You're right, of course - it depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative. Where Rome and the Reformers differ, however, is where man comes in. The Reformers, with St. Paul and Augustine, hold that man is dead in his sin and must be regenerated [i]monergistically. [/i] - hence, we believe in monergistic regeneration. Since Rome holds that man is only wounded, they believe that he must give his assent to grace.

[quote][b]2005 [/b]
Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.[color=blue]56 [/color]However, according to the Lord's words—"Thus you will know them by their fruits"[color=blue]57[/color]—reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.[/quote] Yes - we are to examine our lives to see if we are obeying the commandments, as St. John says.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Cranmer's Own' date='Jan 16 2005, 09:23 PM']I do not deny that Rome teaches the necessity of grace for salvation. I maintain, however, that she denies its [i]sufficency, [/i] thus asserting semi-Pelagianism and partial salvation by works.[/quote]

Any good works we do are empowered by God's grace. Without God's grace, we could do nothing. "[G]ood works --a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love-- follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit.... justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace," (Joint Declaration on Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church).

[quote]It is the translation from death to life, the handing down of the sentence "Not Guilty!" to a wicked sinner deserving only Death.[/quote]

From a Catholic perspective, this is a paltry understanding of justification. We believe justification includes [i]much more[/i]. Divine life is imparted, we become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

[quote]Where Rome and the Reformers differ, however, is where man comes in. The Reformers, with St. Paul and Augustine, hold that man is dead in his sin and must be regenerated [i]monergistically.[/i][/quote]

Actually, you are quite wrong. This is a summary of the Catholic teaching:

Without God, you're dead (Eph. 2:5), and there's absolutely nothing - not works, not faith, not anything - a dead person can do to make himself alive (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Justification chapter[/i] 8). A dead person cannot be a cause in his own regeneration (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Justification chapter[/i] 7). Unfortunately for us, this is the state into which we were born, [b]in Adam[/b], deprived of grace and spiritual life (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Original Sin[/i], [i]Decree on Justification[/i] chapter 1).

However, when the Father gratuitously recreates you [b]in Christ[/b] (2Cor. 5:17-18), gives you supernatural life by "the Spirit of sonship" (Rom. 8:15-17), and gives you faith, hope, and charity (the virtues of 1Cor. 13:13), He can empower you with His grace to do anything (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Justification[/i]). After all, "all things are possible with God" (Mk. 10:27) and "nothing will be impossible to you" (Mt. 17:20). Jesus promised "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). To what purpose? "We have received grace... to bring about the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; also known as "faith working in love" in Gal. 5:6, which Paul calls "good works" in Eph. 2:10). The Lord says "My grace is sufficient for you" (2Cor. 12:9), and we answer "by the grace of God I am what I am" (1Cor 15:10), a child of God the Father (1Jn. 3:1).

What are the causes of initial justification, according to Trent? "Of this Justification the causes are these: the [b]final cause[/b] indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the [b]efficient cause[/b] is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the [b]meritorious cause[/b] is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the [b]instrumental cause[/b] is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone [b]formal cause[/b] is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just...." Likewise, "[i]none[/i] of those things which precede justification --[i]whether faith or works[/i]-- merit the grace itself of justification." The person dead in sin is [i]not[/i] a cause in his own regeneration. There is nothing he can do to merit regeneration and initial justification in any way. (Our total inability to be a cause in our own regeneration is best signified when people are baptized as helpless infants.)

The reason you, like Icthus, have trouble understanding this is because you have subjected your understanding of the scriptures and the essential doctrines of Christianity to a nominalistic philosophical framework, and probably unconsciously. If you were to throw off the shackles of this late medieval philosophical framework, which did not exist when the scriptures were written, you would be able to preserve the true doctrines of Christianity untainted.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Cranmer's Own' date='Jan 16 2005, 11:23 PM'] That's why you [i]never [/i]absolutize human exegesis.


[/quote]
Please utilize the search option of the phorum. You forget too much.


The Catholic Church is guided by God. As promised by Christ, and as taught by the Apostles and every Christian in the Church established by Christ since.

The Church is infallible in that it cannot be wrong on faith and morals.

[b]John 14:16 [/b]
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
[b]17 [/b]the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
[b]18 [/b]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10
...
[b]26 [/b]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.


[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

[b]The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.[/b]


[b]St Matt 18:17 [/b](Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

[b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[b]19 [/b]Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
[b]20 [/b]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

[b]Luke 10:16 [/b]"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"


[b]2 Timoty 3:14 [/b]
But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

"Because you know from whom you learned it" - EVERYONE learned of the Gospel because of the Catholic Church. All who leave her are wrong to do so... One Faith, never to be overcome.

[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."
[b]19 [/b]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."



[b]Ephesians 4:1 [/b]
[b]1[/b] I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,
[b]2 [/b] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,
[b]3 [/b] striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:
[b]4 [/b] 2 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
[b]5 [/b]one Lord, [b]one faith[/b], one baptism;
[b]6 [/b]one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


[b]Acts 20:29 [/b]
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
[b]30 [/b]And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.


[b]2 Peter 3:15 [/b]
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
[b]16 [/b]speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
[b]17 [/b]Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.


[b]
For you to be right, then the Church established by Christ MUST HAVE been overcome. Because ALL protestants are offshots of the Catholic Church - THEY left the group to their own destruction.[/b]


You know that it was the Bishops of the Catholic Church which BY THE AUTHORITY given to them by Christ Himself.... were able to Canonize the Scriptures. They are the Church established by Christ NEVER TO BE OVERCOME.... OR there is no God.

Which there is ample proof of God... and that His Church is the Catholic Church.

Go take some logic classes and read a few dozen logic books, then come back to play. Your same rhetoric without substanance is getting rather old.



[b]Which ones?[/b]

See for yourself....
[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url]

Be sure to look at all the footnotes.

Here is a list of most of the paragraphs that deal with Salvation:
all need salvation, 588
angels as messengers of the divine plan of, 331-32
Baptism necessary for, 1256-57, 1277
Christ s coming for man s, 456-57, 519, 1019
Church as the universal instrument and sacrament of, 776, 780, 816
comes from God alone, 169, 620
and the communion of saints, 1477
ecclesial ministry for man s, 874
"economy of salvation," 1066
everything is ordained for man s, 313
gift of salvation presented through Christ, 1811
God desires the salvation of all men in the truth, 851
God opens the way to man s, 54, 56, 218, 431, 781,1058, 2575
help for salvation of the soul, 95
hope of, 2091
hope of salvation in Israel, 64
human freedom and, 1739-42
importance of moral decisions for, 1696
Is there salvation without Baptism? 1259, 1261
man needs, 1949, 2448
means of, 830, 980
mission of salvation in the work of priests, 1565
observance of the natural law necessary for, 2036
Paul contrasts the universality of sin with the universality of, 402
of the person and society bound up with conjugal happiness, 1603, 2250
prayer for, 2744
sacraments are necessary for, 1129
Sacred Scripture for man s, 107, 122
sacrifice of the Cross for man s, 600-02, 617
saving one s own soul, 1889
service of and witness to the faith necessary for, 1816
Virgin Mary cooperated in human, 511, 969
work of salvation impeded by the Evil One, 2851




[quote]My mistake - Anglicans call them that as well. Though does it really matter what you call 'an explanation of Scripture intended to help a person apply it to their lives?" [/quote]

There is a difference. Homiles have the Sacred Tradition handed down by the Apostles to the present day Church.

[b]2 Thess 2:15 [/b]
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours

[b]1 Corin 11:2 [/b]
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.




A sermon is a man's private interpretation of only Scripture.


[b]2 Peter 1:20[/b] - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

[b]2 Peter 3:16[/b] - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.



[quote]No, I paid plenty of attention. I heard plenty of sermons on how to live a moral life, how to love one's neighbor - all good and worthy things that are integral to the Christian life. However, I never heard a homily on HOW TO BE SAVED. I was never exhorted to place all my trust in Jesus, and Him alone, for the forgiveness of my sins. I was told to pray to Mary, Joseph, everybody else in Heaven for that matter to help me avoid sins, and to go to a priest when I messed up. I was never told, however "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus Christ is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" you will be saved.". In short, I was never told the message of salvation by grace alone, apart from works, through faith working in love as the alone instrument of justification, based on Scripture as the final authority, based on the atoning work of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. I was taught that by some synergy of my works and God's grace, I would make it to Heaven. THis is anti-Biblical.

My priest denied that God's grace is sufficent to get us to Heaven. I asked him "Is God's grace sufficent to ensure that we reach Heaven" and he said "No!" If this is not semi-Pelagianism, I don't know what is. [/quote]

Wrong. You have a an issue with comprehension here, I'm sure you had the same at the Mass if you ever went. The Mass IS NOT the only place a Catholic is to learn about Christ. It IS YOUR responsibility to school yourself after Catechisis.

Mass is Worship... and some learning... The entire bible is read at Mass... You obviously didn't pay attention.

You sound like you went to Jack Chick's "Catholic Church".



[quote]I do not deny that Rome teaches the necessity of grace for salvation. I maintain, however, that she denies its sufficency, thus asserting semi-Pelagianism and partial salvation by works. [/quote]

And you are WRONG!

This topic has been adequatly covered. All I can do is suggest you get on your knees and pray for sight.


[quote] Nor do I deny that we must 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling' [/quote]

Yes you do. You call it semi-pelagianism.





You are wrong, and always will be wrong until you accept the Church.

You are wrong about what the Catholic Church teaches and why they teach it.

You are wrong about the meaning of Church.

Maybe it's because you do not understand what you are talking about and this is proven in your insistance that the Catholic Church teaches things that it doesn't teach.

If you were ever really Catholic - even for just a year - and paid attention - you would not claim half of the asinine things you do.

Again...

Again...

Again...

PLEASE Study

[url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url]

[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM[/url]

[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url]

[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]



[quote name='Apostlic Succession' date=' Lineage, Authority of the Pope, for the first 400 years - A few quotes']
[b]Pope Clement I[/b]


"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

 
[b]Hegesippus[/b]


"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).

 
[b]Irenaeus[/b]


"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).


[b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b]


"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).

 
[b]Jerome[/b]


"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).

 
[b]Augustine[/b]


"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).




[b]Irenaeus[/b]


"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus" (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).

 
[b]Tertullian[/b]


"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).

 
[b]The Little Labyrinth[/b]


"Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter" (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).

 
[b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b]


"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. ... ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).

"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men, at a time when no one had been made [bishop] before him—when the place of [Pope] Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (Letters 55:[52]):8 [A.D. 253]).

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).

 
[b]Eusebius of Caesarea[/b]


"Paul testifies that Crescens was sent to Gaul [2 Tim. 4:10], but Linus, whom he mentions in the Second Epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21] as his companion at Rome, was Peter’s successor in the episcopate of the church there, as has already been shown. Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome, was, as Paul testifies, his co-laborer and fellow-soldier [Phil. 4:3]" (Church History 3:4:9–10 [A.D. 312]).

 
[b]Pope Julius I[/b]


"[The] judgment [against Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. . . . Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. . . . What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], contained in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).

 
[b]Council of Sardica[/b]


"[I]f any bishop loses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew . . . let us honor the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province" (Canon 3 [A.D. 342]).

 
[b]Optatus[/b]


"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

 
[b]Epiphanius of Salamis[/b]


"At Rome the first apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul, then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 27:6 [A.D. 375]).

 
[b]Pope Damasus I[/b]


"Likewise it is decreed: . . . [W]e have considered that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see [today], therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

 
[b]Jerome[/b]


"[Pope] Stephen . . . was the blessed Peter’s twenty-second successor in the See of Rome" (Against the Luciferians 23 [A.D. 383]).

"Clement, of whom the apostle Paul writing to the Philippians says ‘With Clement and others of my fellow-workers whose names are written in the book of life,’ the fourth bishop of Rome after Peter, if indeed the second was Linus and the third Anacletus, although most of the Latins think that Clement was second after the apostle" (Lives of Illustrious Men 15 [A.D. 396]).

"Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord . . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church [Rome] whose faith has been praised by Paul [Rom. 1:8]. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. . . . Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact" (Letters 15:1 [A.D. 396]).

...

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (ibid., 15:2).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).

 
[b]Ambrose of Milan[/b]


"[T]hey [the Novatian heretics] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven [by the sacrament of confession] even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven’[Matt. 16:19]" (Penance 1:7:33 [A.D. 388]).

 
[b]Augustine[/b]


"If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?" (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

 
[b]Council of Ephesus[/b]


"Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).


[b]Pope Clement I[/b]


"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

 
[b]Hermas[/b]


"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

 
[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]


"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

 
[b]Dionysius of Corinth[/b]


"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).

 
[b]The Martyrs of Lyons[/b]


"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).

 
[b]Irenaeus[/b]


"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).


[/quote]

[XIX]

I had somebody tell me that it could have been a spaceship or a UFO and this stuff happens all the time. There have probably been instances of what seemed like mass hallucination before...

This coming from a guy who, ten minutes earlier, couldn't have told me where on the globe is Fatima located. Heck, I don't think he could have told me it was a place at all!


Slightly outlandish...

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Oh man. This thread it turning into a salvation debate...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jan 17 2005, 10:41 AM'] Oh man. This thread it turning into a salvation debate... [/quote]
Dairygirl was right.

Notice the avoiding of the miracles.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 17 2005, 12:36 PM'] [b]Dairygirl was right.[/b]

Notice the avoiding of the miracles.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Whoa... did I read that right?

[the protector]

[Edited by IcePrincess: negative criticism/personal attack]

Edited January 18, 2005 by IcePrincessKRS