No Salvation Outside the Church

[cathqat]

Also worthwhile: [url="http://www.cuf.org/member/withoutchurch.pdf"][b]Without the Church There Is No Salvation[/b][/url] by Philip C.L. Gray, a canon lawyer.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 8 2005, 06:49 PM'] Also worthwhile: [url="http://www.cuf.org/member/withoutchurch.pdf"][b]Without the Church There Is No Salvation[/b][/url] by Philip C.L. Gray, a canon lawyer. [/quote]
ooh! ooh! another link! thanks

[phatcatholic]

............oh, wait, i already have that one.

thanks anyway tho!!

[cathqat]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 8 2005, 07:48 PM'] ............oh, wait, i already have that one. [/quote]
Well I didn't call you "Great Archivist" for nothing, then, did I?

[thessalonian]

A couple of concerns with theology in this area. One is the danger of indifferentism, where we say, oh, these are good people. It really doesn't matter if they become Catholic and one religion is just as good as another. Dominus Iesus by JP II speaks to that issue quite clearly. There is also a fear on some of enlightening others to the faith and then having them reject it. It is well to remember that you are just one piece of the puzzle and the grace God sends their way. Also, they may be in a state where they would not be damned in ignorance, but they must of course persevere in the grace. To deny them the grace of the sacrements in their journey is not being merciful. It is best to hope as if all are saved, but pray and act as if all are damned leaving the judgement up to the God of the universe who is quite capable. i.e. don't judge in grace or out of grace. Both are equally errant.

Also it is important to note that if they attain eternal life, it is not by their ignorance of truths, but by the truths that God has planted on their hearts that they adhere to. In this they may well be joined to the Church. However ignorance also can be culpable if God gave them the grace to know and our of hardness of heart, or laziness, or perhaps an unwillingness to follow truths that would require them to renounce sins they were attached to, they neclect learning about the truth.


Here is the promised quote from Pius IX in 1854.

Here is what I was looking for from Piux IX.


From QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

i.e. ON the promotion of false doctrines:

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm[/url]

It's well worth a read.

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Many say that Vatican II changed the teaching of no salvation outside the Church. But this is very similar to what the Church says today. Aquinas also writes in the Summa in a similar manner. I will try find that later. I also have Ludwig Ott's Dogma of Catholicism, pre-vatican II which is a theological classic. It is pretty consistent with V II.

Edited January 9, 2005 by thessalonian

[phatcatholic]

awesome, thanks bro

[franciscanheart]

again...........

[goldenchild17]

Can you clarify 2 things please

1. what is the doctrine of " Invincible ignorance "

2. does " outside the church" mean outside the Catholic Church or outside the universal church of believers?


and...

If it means that there is " no salvation outside the Catholic Church", then what does the following mean?
The Council's Decree on Ecumenism... the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities.......Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jan 9 2005, 01:11 AM']Can you clarify 2 things please

1. what is the doctrine of " Invincible ignorance"[/quote]
Invincible ignorance is simply ignorance for which a man is not culpable.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jan 9 2005, 01:11 AM']2. does "outside the church" mean outside the Catholic Church or outside the universal church of believers?[/quote]
As the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council taught:

"Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body. This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth.' [i]This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him[/i], although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity." [Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution [u]Lumen Gentium[/u], no. 8]

In the mid 1980s the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed the teaching of Vatican II when it issued a notification on the defective theology of Fr. Leonardo Boff. In the notification the Congregation said that ". . . there is only one subsistence of the Church, [and] the council had chosen the word [i]subsistit[/i] (subsists) exactly in order to make clear that one sole [i]subsistence[/i] of the true church exists, whereas outside her visible structure only [i]elementa ecclesiae[/i] (elements of church) exist; these [i]being elements of the same Church[/i] tend and conduct toward the Catholic Church ([u]Lumen Gentium[/u], 8)." [CDF [u]Notification on Father Leonardo Boff[/u], issued 11 March 1985] Thus the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of St. Peter, is the sole subsistence of the Church of Christ.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jan 9 2005, 01:11 AM']and...

If it means that there is "no salvation outside the Catholic Church", then what does the following mean?

The Council's Decree on Ecumenism... the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities . . .  Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church."[/quote]
As indicated above, there are [i]elementa ecclesiae[/i] outside the visible structure of the one Holy Catholic Church, but those elements of grace are directed toward and gain their efficacy from the one Church which is Christ's Body; and as a consequence, those graces found outside the visible structure of the Catholic Church induce all men to enter into full communion with the one Catholic Church governed by the Pope.

[thessalonian]

"the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities.......Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. "

First of all when the Church speaks of ecumenism it is speaking with regard to other Christian religions. Especially the Orthodox. There are elements of truth (which are in fact consistent with Catholicism and therefore Catholic) which are in all men.

Romans 2:13-15
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



One of these truths is with regard to the sacrament of baptism which works no different in a Protestant or Orthodox as in a Catholic as long as they are not obstinately and willfully in separation with the Catholic Church, though they may be out of ignorance. Thus baptism Sanctifies in all men who partake of it in the manner the Church intends or according to the mind of Christ. Orthodox also have the six other sacraments as valid, which sanctify. Those who do not WILLFULLY reject Christ, knowing and understanding some truth about him and the Church, are in an imperfect way joined to the Church. There is no salvation Outside the Church.

[thessalonian]

When I get back from Mass I will post some of what Aquinas has to say on this that should clear things up a bit.

[thessalonian]

It is important to trust that the Church is wiser than us. This does not mean that the Churches teaching is beyond reason. But that some of submission to it has to be based on faith. For instance, not even the Pope and all the magesterium understand the Trinity, yet it is not beyond reason to believe that it is true.

As promised Aquinas:
Here is something I posted from another board regarding Aquinas on these topics, i.e. baptism, No Salvation outside the Church, Invincible ignorance,etc. etc.

He does not say that all baptisms of those who are not visibly Catholic are graceless. He does indicate that those who have "right faith" can recieve the sanctifying grace of baptism. In his Q68 Art. 8 Reply Obj 1: "Our Lord is speaking thereof Baptism as bringing us to salvation by giving us sanctifying grace: whic of course cannot be without right faith....". ..

In reply obj 2 he defines what right faith means by giving the Churches intention of baptism for the remission of sins and says in reply 3 "Even he who has not right faith on other points can have right faith about the sacrement of Baptism: and so he is not hindered from having the intention of recieveing the sacrement. Yet even if he think not aright concering this sacrement, it is enough, for the recieveing of the sacrement that he should have a general intention of recieving baptism., according as Christ instituted and the Chruch bestows it.".

A sacrement is defined of course as an outward sign of inward GRACE. So the grace is not held back from such a person as you claim. Now this understanding of mine regarding the Summa explanation is confirmed by what he further says back in Reply to Obj 2 "If on the contrary, anyone without right faith recieve Baptism outside the Church, he does not recieve it unto salvatoin". Once again it is clear in context that right faith is that he believes his baptism is for the remission of sins, or at least to be baptized as Christ instituted the sacrement. You overstated the position of the Summa. He even says that one with no faith can be baptized. Once again such a baptism would not be unto salvation, i.e. it would not confer sanctifying grace. Now I am clear on the issue and incidently right back where I started in this regard. Protestant baptisms are valid and can be efficasious, conferring santifying grace.

Here are the links which I take my information from to his online Summa Theologica.


[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406808.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406808.htm[/url]

Also of interest: "Whether a man can be saved Without baptism"

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406802.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406802.htm[/url]


They are well worth a read. Note in the baptism one that it really is no different with regard to doctrinal adherence if a man is being baptized in a Catholic vs. a Protestant Church. In fact there really is no such thing as a Protestant baptism.

Blessings
Blessings

[phatcatholic]

dude, where have you been all my life.........

[FutureSoror]

I find this to be a helpful summary of how that phrase should be correctly understood:


If anyone is saved outside of the Catholic Church, it is because of a connection with the Church in some way, whether the person knows it or not.

[thessalonian]

oops

Edited January 14, 2005 by thessalonian