No Salvation Outside the Church

[goldenchild17]

"In particular, in the struggle between St. Augustine and Pelagius, [b]the latter denied original sin, while Augustine, Doctor of the Church, asserted its existence. In St. Augustine’s time, the doctrine existed according to which outside the Church there was no salvation[/b], so the belief was that those who were not baptized, whether adults or newborns, could not enjoy the salvific vision."

If in St. Augustines time the doctrine was that there " was no salvatoin outside the Church", is this still the doctrine of the Catholic Church? And if not a second question... Then why does the Catholic Church claim that doctrine has never changed when apparently this one did ?

[thessalonian]

It has not changed as a matter of fact but must be properly understood in light of another doctrine of the Church which is Invincible ignorance. Augustine himself spoke about formal and informal heretics. Pius IX in his syllabus of Errors condemns those who believe in Modernist Doctrines. Yet in another document he allows for the ignorance of some. Others speak about formal and informal joining to the Church. i.e. one who is ignorant of what the Church teaches is not culpable for what he does not know. Luke 12 says that the faithful slave who later began getting drunk and beating the other servants will be treated as the unbeliever, while the one who did not know will recieve but few lashes. Much more to say on this and I will look up the quotes from Pius IX later and other quotes throughout history (Justin Martyr even holds that Aetheists in ignorance can be saved). Unam Sanctum gives the protestants alot of heartburn.

I must also add that God is not limited by his sacraments. Though for those who hear his word they are fully neccessary in the form he decrees out of obedience to him normatively, others who have not heard his word, yet live by the light and grace that he has given them (read Romans 2:15) we hope will be saved. We do not of course know that anyone is saved. But each man is responsible for the grace given to him. In fact for us whom are Catholic judgement will be much harder (Luke 12 around v. 40, james 3:1).

Some significant paragraphs from the CCC.

Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men":339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

850 The origin and purpose of mission. The Lord's missionary mandate is ultimately grounded in the eternal love of the Most Holy Trinity: "The Church on earth is by her nature missionary since, according to the plan of the Father, she has as her origin the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."341 The ultimate purpose of mission is none other than to make men share in the communion between the Father and the Son in their Spirit of love.342

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God's love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on."343 Indeed, God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth";344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

852 Missionary paths. The Holy Spirit is the protagonist, "the principal agent of the whole of the Church's mission."345 It is he who leads the Church on her missionary paths. "This mission continues and, in the course of history, unfolds the mission of Christ, who was sent to evangelize the poor; so the Church, urged on by the Spirit of Christ, must walk the road Christ himself walked, a way of poverty and obedience, of service and self-sacrifice even to death, a death from which he emerged victorious by his resurrection."346 So it is that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of Christians."347



Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:


All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:


Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334




Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324



It is good to reflect upon the stories of Cornelius in Acts 10, 11 who was a "Righteous and God fearing man" before Paul brought the Gospel to him, the Good Samaritan whom Christ held high as an example for the Apostles, though he was a Samaritan who believed in the God of Israel but also the other Gods of Assyria of whom enslaved the Israelites and the three wise men who were not Jews.

Now it is not outside the Church that these are saved. For in some way that we do not fully understand they are joined to the Church. For they have not outright rejected her. It is willful rejection that damns mankind.

All I have time for.
More later.

Blessings

Edited January 8, 2005 by thessalonian

[phatcatholic]

the Church has always believed that one outside the Church cannot be saved. however, our knowledge of what it is to be "outside" has grown to take a less simplistic meaning. this fuller meaning, whereby it is understood that someone can be a part of the Church w/o being an actual baptized member, has always existed implicitly in the ECF's. it only appears novel b/c, until recently, magesterial documents were few that elucidated this meaning.

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=964"][b]this article[/b][/url] and [url="http://www.cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"][b]this website[/b][/url] are both very helpful

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jan 8 2005, 11:30 AM'] "In particular, in the struggle between St. Augustine and Pelagius, [b]the latter denied original sin, while Augustine, Doctor of the Church, asserted its existence. In St. Augustine’s time, the doctrine existed according to which outside the Church there was no salvation[/b], so the belief was that those who were not baptized, whether adults or newborns, could not enjoy the salvific vision."

If in St. Augustines time the doctrine was that there " was no salvatoin outside the Church", is this still the doctrine of the Catholic Church? And if not a second question... Then why does the Catholic Church claim that doctrine has never changed when apparently this one did ? [/quote]
I wrote this a while back:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 1 2004, 12:43 PM']The Church's doctrine on invincible ignorance shows that it is not possible for a man to be saved if he [i]knows[/i] that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary for salvation and then [i]deliberately[/i] fails to either enter the Church, or if already in her, to remain in communion with her. [i]Such a man would stand self-condemned before God[/i].

That being said, the nature of invincible ignorance itself, and the concept of explicit rejection of the Church, are not always clearly understood today.

Invincible ignorance has two aspects: (1) a man can be invincibly ignorant because, [i]through no fault of his own[/i], he has never heard about the Gospel of Christ and His Church, or (2) he can be invincibly ignorant because, [i]through no fault of his own[/i], he has failed to comprehend the Gospel message as it has been preached to him.

Any man, whether or not he explicitly rejects the necessity of membership in the Catholic Church and submission to the Roman Pontiff, who does this act of rejection out of [i]ignorance that is not deliberate[/i], may still be saved, because the explicit act of rejection has been done out of an ignorance for which he is not culpable. So, if a man hears the Gospel of Christ preached, [i]but through no fault of his own[/i], he is unable to comprehend the message, and then he explicitly rejects the Catholic Church, his action, which is objectively in error, would not be subjectively imputable to him. This is because his act of rejecting the Church was based on a malformed understanding of the truth, and so long as this misjudgment was [i]not through his own fault[/i], he would still have the possibility of salvation. Such an act of explicit rejection, if it is based on ignorance that is not deliberate, is not imputable to the agent of the action in question. Therefore, if a Protestant, or some other non-Catholic Christian, rejects the Catholic Church or submission to the Pope, but does so because, [i]through no fault of his own[/i], he has been unable to understand the message of Christ entrusted to the Catholic Church alone, he will not be culpable for this explicit act of rejection, and as a consequence he may still be saved. Only God can know who is or is not invincibly, as opposed to vincibly, ignorant; because only God can see the secrets of the heart.

Let me try to explain this by reference to my own conversion experience. During the 26 years that I was a Protestant, one could say that I had explicitly rejected the Catholic Church. Such a judgment about my own state of mind at the time would be correct in a certain sense, because I had rejected a notion of the Catholic Church based on the polemical attitudes of my parents and of the various religious writings that I had read up to that time. But since I did not really grasp the true nature of the Catholic doctrine of the necessity of the Church for salvation; my explicit rejection of the Catholic Church was based on a misinformed conscience, and so my judgment was impaired in this matter, even though I was really seeking after the truth. I had made an explicit rejection of the Catholic Church, of the Pope, and of the Marian dogmas, along with many other Catholic doctrines, but since I had no real understanding of any of those things, I was not culpable for my error, and I continued my search for the truth. Over the eight years that it took me to convert I did not pretend to be ignorant of the truth in order to remain in the Methodist Church, and later in the Anglican Church; instead, it really took me eight years to grasp the nature of the truth about necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation.

Now, surely a Catholic during that time, would have looked at my explicit rejection of the Church as condemnatory, but since he cannot see the secrets of my heart, and cannot tell if I am vincibly or invincibly ignorant, his judgment of the state of my soul would be false, and in fact, in even making that judgment he would be presuming to know what only God can determine. So, if a man explicitly rejects the Catholic Church, but in doing so is really rejecting a false notion of what the Catholic Church is, based on misinformation or on the anti-Catholic views of members of his family, it follows that such a man would not be culpable for this act of rejection, so long as it was done while he was in a state of invincible ignorance. It may take a man some time to grasp the nature of the truth, and I say this as one speaking from personal experience, because it took me eight years to overcome the false notions about the Catholic Church that I had been inculcated with from my youth.

Based on the Church's doctrine of invincible ignorance, it is clear that a man, who, [i]through no fault of his own[/i], has never heard the Gospel, or a man, who, [i]through no fault of his own[/i], has heard it but has failed to comprehend it, is not culpable for his error, and, as Blessed Pius IX indicated, if he observes the natural law and lives an honest life, he may ". . . attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." [Blessed Pope Pius IX, [u]Quanto Conficiamur Moerore[/u], no. 7]

Clearly, any man who is saved, is saved by the grace of God, which is solely communicated to humanity through Christ's one Holy Catholic Church, the sacrament of salvation; so if a man is saved, it follows that he is saved through the Catholic Church even if he is invincibly ignorant of this fact.[/quote]

Taken from: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14880&view=findpost&p=245031"]Invincible Ignorance[/url]

[drewmeister2]

Here is also a site, made by The Dude: [url="http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude...tfeeneyism.html[/url]

It talks about this topic. God bless!

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='drewmeister2' date='Jan 8 2005, 02:55 PM'] Here is also a site, made by The Dude: [url="http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude...tfeeneyism.html[/url]

It talks about this topic. God bless! [/quote]
that's what i linked to above

[Apotheoun]

I wrote this in response to a statement by HarfordWhalers, hopefully reading it will help:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Sep 8 2004, 11:28 PM'][quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 6 2004, 10:32 AM']No, she did not go to Heaven. The Church teaches the necessity of Baptism to be saved. Unbaptized infants (or those who never know right from wrong, she would be considered here) go to a place called Limbo, which is a part of Hell. It is not defined by the Church, but if Limbo is rejected, then one must say she went to Hell. However, I seriously doubt such a situation exists in which she responded to all the graces God gave her and she is in no way culpable. St. Thomas Aquinas said that if such a person existed, an Angel could come to teach him about the Church so he could be baptized (I tyhink the Angel would baptize him, St. Thomas said, or he could teach him how to instruct someone else to baptize him).[/quote]
The fanciful idea that angels go around baptizing people is not a doctrine of the faith; and so it really is an evasion to bring it up as a solution to the present problem under consideration. Instead of proposing fanciful solutions to a problem, it is far better to stick to the de fide teaching of the Church, for she holds that a person who is struggling with invincible ignorance of the necessity of membership in the Church for salvation, will not on that account alone be condemned by God to eternal damnation. As Blessed Pope Pius IX said, "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. [i]Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of [b]divine light[/b] and [b]grace[/b][/i]. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, [i]His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments[/i]." [Blessed Pope Pius IX, [u]Quanto Conficiamur Moerore[/u], no. 7] Now it is important to remember that anyone who is saved, is saved by the grace of God, even if they are invincibly ignorant of the necessity of membership in the Church. This doctrine was further clarified by the Holy Office when it issued, by command of Pope Pius XII, the 1949 letter to Archbishop Cushing, in which it explained the true nature of the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church. As the letter itself says:

[quote name='1949 Letter of the Holy Office'][T]his dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. [b][i]For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church[/i][/b].

Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He Himself had commanded (Matt. 28: 19-20).

Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.

Therefore, no one will be saved who, [b][i]knowing[/i][/b] the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, [b][i]nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth[/i][/b].

Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.

In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, [b][i]can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance[/i][/b] ([u]Denzinger[/u], nn. 797, 807).

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. [b][i]Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing[/i][/b].

[b][i]However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God[/i][/b].

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, [u]On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ[/u] (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, [b][i]and those who are united to the Church only by desire[/i][/b].

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed."

Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "[b][i]are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire[/i][/b]," and [b][i]these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation[/i][/b], but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, [u]Singulari quadam[/u], in [u]Denzinger[/u], n.  1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, [u]Quanto conficiamur moerore[/u], in [u]Denzinger[/u], n. 1677).

But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" ([u]Denzinger[/u], n. 801).[/quote]
From all of this it is clear that grace can, in an extraordinary way, be given outside the visible structure of the Church, and so it is wrong to say that everyone who is not united to the Church visibly is by definition condemned to hell. But it is important to remember that anyone who is saved, is saved by the grace of God, which necessarily flows from the Church, even if the person saved is invincibly ignorant of this fact. Their invincible ignorance does not save them in this case; instead, it is grace that saves them in spite of their inculpable ignorance of the necessity of the Church.[/quote]
Taken from: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19615&view=findpost&p=347160"]Salvation For Those Who Never Know God - Hypothetical situation.[/url]

[Apotheoun]

Here is another thread that dealt with this topic, well worth reading in its entirety:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14779&hl=invincible%20ignorance&st=0"]Question for you Catholics[/url]

God bless,
Todd

[drewmeister2]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 8 2005, 02:03 PM'] that's what i linked to above [/quote]
Oh, oops, sorry!
lol

[phatcatholic]

thanks for all the info apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

This post concerns the damnable effect of [b][i]deliberately[/i][/b], and with [b][i]full knowledge[/i][/b], rejecting a truth within the hierarchy of truths:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 30 2004, 12:48 PM'][quote name='Madonna' date='Dec 30 2004, 10:37 AM']I hope I did not lead you to believe that I think the veneration of saints and Mary is dispensable.

I think it is possible to have some sort of relationship with God without the veneration of saints or Mary. I do not think there is fullness in a relationship without it though. I would never tell a non-Catholic Christian that they have no relationship with God because they do not venerate Mary and the saints.[/quote]
I do understand your position, but I hold that one must be in communion with the saints; in other words, one must venerate the Holy Theotokos and the saints, because God's energy is present within them, and to ignore them is an affront to God Himself.

As a Byzantine Catholic I venerate the Holy Theotokos in the Divine Liturgy itself, for such veneration is an integral part of the Eucharistic liturgy. Moreover, because of the holistic nature of the faith, I refrain from trying to say that some things are necessary, while other things are not.

As far as non-Catholic Christians are concerned. Their relationship with God is defective, because they do not possess the fullness of truth, nor do they possess the degree of communion with God that is possible within the Catholic Church. Furthermore, if a man rejects the veneration of the saints, knowing that it is proper and right to give them veneration, it follows that he condemns himself, for to knowingly reject a truth is to exclude oneself from beatitude. Now if the man in question is invincibly ignorant of this truth of the faith, something only God can know, he will be judged by God accordingly. Invincible ignorance of the truth can lessen a man's culpability for error.

The veneration of the saints is an indispensable part of a truly Christian life.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
Taken from: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=26534&view=findpost&p=468935"]Jesus vs Mary and the Saints[/url]

[goldenchild17]

Dang, ya'll sure jumped on this one! Thanks. This is more than enough.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 8 2005, 01:13 PM'] thanks for all the info apotheoun [/quote]
No problem.

Phatmass, your collection of information on the topic in the reference section is top notch.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 8 2005, 04:27 PM'] No problem.

Phatmass, your collection of information on the topic in the reference section is top notch. [/quote]
talkin to me?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 8 2005, 02:39 PM'] talkin to me?

[/quote]
Ooops!!

Why yes, I am talking to you. As Maxwell Smart would say, "Sorry about that chief!"