Augustine

[Robyn]

Ok, what does the catholic church teach about Augustine (the first one) in early church history?

The challenge is to answer simply - no page-long responses please.

[jasJis]

St. Augustine was a very intelligent man who came to Christianity latter in life. He is considered a Doctor of the Church, meaning he helped developed understanding of Faith based on foundational Truths. While most of what he wrote and proposed is accepted by the Church, not everything was. After all, St. Augustine was not infallible.

B)

jasJis

[ICTHUS]

Also, some of his anti-pelagian writings are twisted by Protestants to try to prove sola fide..

[jasJis]

Also, some of his anti-pelagian writings are twisted by Protestants to try to prove sola fide..

Like we wouldn't see that Bus barrelling down a single lane road!

[ironmonk]

If you don't want long answers, don't ask questions that have them. Here is the short version.....

St. Augustine was from Hippo. His mother prayed for 16 years for him to convert to the Church. Then he converted...

He became a Catholic Bishop.

A few quotes from St. Augustine:

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

...

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).

You can view his writings here: http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/

Read about him here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm

It was funny, one time, an anti-Catholic actually tried to use a quote from him against the Catholic Church, but when you looked the quote up and read it in the context it was in, it blew up in the guy's face.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Aloysius]

lol i think what Robyn meant by "no long answers" is "no ironmonk answers"

anyway, i love ya ironmonk. dont ALWAYS read your posts, but when i do they fill me up with quotes and knowledge that make me happy about Catholocism.

[ironmonk]

LOL...

Thanks bro..

I'll create a new thread for the anti-Catholic I mentioned...

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Katholikos]

Favorite quote from St. Augustine (354-430 A.D.):

"For my part, I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church" (Letter to Mani).

I find it hiliarious that some twist his words and claim that he supported Sola Scriptura, but he was the Bishop of Hippo (in Africa), and was influential in the decree of the Council of Hippo (393) which set the canon (the table of contents) of the Scriptures! That and my favorite quote (above) kill Sola Scriptura for Augustine. Besides, the historical record shows that SS was invented by Martin Luther in 1517.

Katholikos

[ICTHUS]

Uhh, guys. I hate to break it to you, but Augustine was a heretic when it came to the Eucharist.

His doctrine was more in line with the "Reformed" churches, which is where they get their idea on the Eucharist from.

12. "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven." Manna signified this bread; God's altar signified this bread. Those were sacraments. In the signs they were diverse; in the thing which was signified they were alike. Hear the apostle: "For I would not that ye should be ignorant, brethren," saith he, "that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat." Of course, the same spiritual meat; for corporally it was another: since they ate manna, we eat another thing; but the spiritual was the same as that which we eat. But "our" fathers, not the fathers of those Jews; those to whom we are like, not those to whom they were like. Moreover he adds: "And did all drink the same spiritual drink." They one kind of drink, we another, but only in the visible form, which, however, signified the same thing in its spiritual virtue. For how was it that they drank the "same drink"? "They drank," saith he "of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." Thence the bread, thence the drink. The rock was Christ in sign; the real Christ is in the Word and in flesh. And how did they drink? The rock was smitten twice with a rod; the double smiting signified the two wooden beams of the cross. "This, then, is the bread that cometh down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die." But this is what belongs to the virtue of the sacrament, not to the visible sacrament; he that eateth within, not without; who eateth in his heart, not who presses with his teeth.

.....

18. In a word, He now explains how that which He speaks of comes to pass, and what it is to eat His body and to drink His blood. "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwelleth not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwelleth not, doubtless neither eateth His flesh [spiritually] nor drinketh His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather doth he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man taketh worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

As demonstrated, Augustine believed that the Eucharist is only the Body and Blood of Christ for the BELIEVER, and that if an unbeliever "presses with his teeth" the sacrament (i.e. the outward sign) of the Body and Blood of Christ, he does not in fact partake of the Body and Blood of Christ as the Believer does, but only eats and drinks more damnation on himself.

This is the position of the Reformed churches.

Edited October 19, 2003 by ICTHUS

[Dave]

Augustine was no heretic! Reformed churches take Augustine's quotes out of context and claim he meant something that he didn't.

Besides, if Augustine were a heretic, do you really think he'd have been named a saint and a Doctor of the Church?

[BLAZEr]

Uhh, guys. I hate to break it to you, but Augustine was a heretic when it came to the Eucharist.

His doctrine was more in line with the "Reformed" churches, which is where they get their idea on the Eucharist from.

12. "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven." Manna signified this bread; God's altar signified this bread. Those were sacraments. In the signs they were diverse; in the thing which was signified they were alike. Hear the apostle: "For I would not that ye should be ignorant, brethren," saith he, "that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat." Of course, the same spiritual meat; for corporally it was another: since they ate manna, we eat another thing; but the spiritual was the same as that which we eat. But "our" fathers, not the fathers of those Jews; those to whom we are like, not those to whom they were like. Moreover he adds: "And did all drink the same spiritual drink." They one kind of drink, we another, but only in the visible form, which, however, signified the same thing in its spiritual virtue. For how was it that they drank the "same drink"? "They drank," saith he "of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." Thence the bread, thence the drink. The rock was Christ in sign; the real Christ is in the Word and in flesh. And how did they drink? The rock was smitten twice with a rod; the double smiting signified the two wooden beams of the cross. "This, then, is the bread that cometh down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die." But this is what belongs to the virtue of the sacrament, not to the visible sacrament; he that eateth within, not without; who eateth in his heart, not who presses with his teeth.

.....

18. In a word, He now explains how that which He speaks of comes to pass, and what it is to eat His body and to drink His blood. "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwelleth not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwelleth not, doubtless neither eateth His flesh [spiritually] nor drinketh His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather doth he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man taketh worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

As demonstrated, Augustine believed that the Eucharist is only the Body and Blood of Christ for the BELIEVER, and that if an unbeliever "presses with his teeth" the sacrament (i.e. the outward sign) of the Body and Blood of Christ, he does not in fact partake of the Body and Blood of Christ as the Believer does, but only eats and drinks more damnation on himself.

This is the position of the Reformed churches.

That you misunderstand Augustine is not his fault. He is no heretic and these quotes do not suggest such. Doctors of the Church are declared as such because ALL of their writings are within Church teaching. Particularly for Augustine it's his writings on the topic of Grace . .. alas, he is called the "Doctor of Grace" . . .

I could get into it more but I'll just say briefly:

Catholics also believe that just eathing the Eucharist does not avail you of its grace, (like if someone in mortal sin eats the eucharist, or someone eats it in order to commit a sacrilege like in voodo). In fact the Church teaches that the disposition toward the sacrament (the heart Augustine refers to) is what invites the fulness of the communion into our lives. That's why Augy-baby refers to the "virtue" of the sacrament.

That second thing you bolded proves this case again. He is saying that if you are not disposed to receive his body, then it is of no avail to you, even though you have chewed it with your teeth. You see, he believes in the real presence. He acknowledges the body is being cheweed, just not correctly received "spiritually" in the heart. Spiritually does not mean symbolically . . . we receive Christ "spiritually" in communion, not just physically.

[ICTHUS]

Okay! I get it now...I never thought of it that way, but it all makes sense now.

The second thing.

The Council of Trent teaches us that our free will must give consent to Gods grace, which would mean that we are not justified by grace alone, but by a hybrid of Grace and our own consent.

Augustinian teaching condemns this, does it not?

[Anna]

Yes, I believe that St. Augustine was expounding on St. Paul's 1 Corinthians 11:

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

This is from a protestant website, but obviously, this particular denomination believes that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ:

"Can the Communion be done "unworthily", or "in vain"? The answer is yes, and Paul addressed this in 1 Corinthians 11, explaining that one should not be partaking of the Lord's Supper lacking the discernment of it's purpose.

Paul explains that we are not to eat and drink as we do a meal, but rather, to eat and drink Communion with the proper reverence for our Lord as it's soul purpose. Communion is not for the flesh, but for the spirit, so that we do not take Communion in condemnation..."

Regarding your question about free will and God's grace being a sort of hybrid combo, that's an unusual way of putting it, but if God's grace justifies everyone, regardless of whether or not he accepts it, then everyone would be saved. That wouldn't be just, would it?

Of course, who in his right mind would refuse God's grace?

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

Ok, what does the catholic church teach about Augustine (the first one) in early church history?

The challenge is to answer simply - no page-long responses please.

Short answer: He was one of us. :)

[ironmonk]

Uhh, guys. I hate to break it to you, but Augustine was a heretic when it came to the Eucharist.

His doctrine was more in line with the "Reformed" churches, which is where they get their idea on the Eucharist from.

12. "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven." Manna signified this bread; God's altar signified this bread. Those were sacraments. In the signs they were diverse; in the thing which was signified they were alike. Hear the apostle: "For I would not that ye should be ignorant, brethren," saith he, "that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat." Of course, the same spiritual meat; for corporally it was another: since they ate manna, we eat another thing; but the spiritual was the same as that which we eat. But "our" fathers, not the fathers of those Jews; those to whom we are like, not those to whom they were like. Moreover he adds: "And did all drink the same spiritual drink." They one kind of drink, we another, but only in the visible form, which, however, signified the same thing in its spiritual virtue. For how was it that they drank the "same drink"? "They drank," saith he "of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." Thence the bread, thence the drink. The rock was Christ in sign; the real Christ is in the Word and in flesh. And how did they drink? The rock was smitten twice with a rod; the double smiting signified the two wooden beams of the cross. "This, then, is the bread that cometh down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die." But this is what belongs to the virtue of the sacrament, not to the visible sacrament; he that eateth within, not without; who eateth in his heart, not who presses with his teeth.

.....

18. In a word, He now explains how that which He speaks of comes to pass, and what it is to eat His body and to drink His blood. "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwelleth not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwelleth not, doubtless neither eateth His flesh [spiritually] nor drinketh His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather doth he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man taketh worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

As demonstrated, Augustine believed that the Eucharist is only the Body and Blood of Christ for the BELIEVER, and that if an unbeliever "presses with his teeth" the sacrament (i.e. the outward sign) of the Body and Blood of Christ, he does not in fact partake of the Body and Blood of Christ as the Believer does, but only eats and drinks more damnation on himself.

This is the position of the Reformed churches.

Please read my previous post...

Augustine did believe in the Real Pressence. Augustine was no heretic.

Protestants must take quotes out of context for them to be able to use Augustine quotes against the Catholic Church.

Anytime a prot brings up any ECF, I suggest actually looking the writing up, then read the section before, and after the quote given.

And I say the same to prots, look the quotes up that we give, you will learn alot about pure Christian Faith... which is Catholicism.

Augustine:

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

...

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited October 20, 2003 by ironmonk