The Anglicans

[Ellenita]

You are right to say that the queen has a say over church appointments - traditionally she has been consulted over the appointment of the Archbishop of Canturbury, as inDouche has the Prime minister. The problem is that our (unwritten) consitution has seen the church, monarchy and state all intertwined for centuries, those the discussion about dis-establishment continues to grow, and I think the debate will increase if Charles becomes king. However, the authority of the monarchy within the anglican church is most definately not the same as the authority of the pope within the catholic church.

I would be very surprised if the current archbishop of Canturbury had any plans to allow same sex marriage within the anglican church in the near future. He is fully aware that the appointment of an openly gay bishop in the US branch of the church has created a situation which is likely to lead to a schism within the anglican movement. The meetings of all the bishops from around the world which have been held over the past week have been trying to resolve the situation, but if the media is the be believed, the church is heading for a major split.

[BLAZEr]

BLAZEr, I'm not sure, but I seem to remember reading that in the U.S. only, Eastern Rite priests were not allowed to marry after a certain date.  Do you know if this is true?

I really don't know and I was figuring someone would call me on this!!! (Gotta love Phatmass)

I only know one married priest in the Byzantine Rite and he originally from Europe. He and his wife have to make a promise of "continence" Which means that they are not allowed to have relations with each other. THis is actually a requirement made of Anglican convert clergy too (from what I understand). There is a good book on this topic (Clerical Celibacy) by Scepter Press . .. the name escapes right now (does anyone know what I'm talking about?)

Also, the only Maronite Priest that I know who is married is from Egypt. He was visiting here (without his wife) they too are celibate in their marriage.

Finally I know a Melchite priest here in the US who is married and has a daughter (conceived after his ordination). He was a Roman Catholic originally and left so he could be a married priest (big no no from the Vatican on that one). He was ordained in the early 70's. From what I understand Melchites can be a bit, umm, what's the word . . . theologically inventive?

Does anyone know more about that?

[cmotherofpirl]

THere is no rule that says an Catholic ex-Anglican priest cannot have sex with his wife.

Otherwise he would be a divorced catholic ex-Anglican priest pretty fast!

[hyperdulia again]

that's what i was thinking...you can't require celibacy within a marriage.

[BLAZEr]

There is no rule that says an ex-Anglican priest has to become a Roman Catholic one either.

I think its a mistake that we allow Deacons to have relations with their wives. This is a clear break from tradition too.

It has been the constant tradition of the Church that clerics are celibate. Even married clerics had to take a promise of celibacy (as opposed to just chastity, which in a marriage would allow for sex).

Edited October 20, 2003 by BLAZEr

[Ellenita]

Blazer, the implications of that are huge! It would mean that the wife would have to have the same kind of calling as her husband, since divorce isn't permitted in the Catholic church. What if she didn't feel she had that sort of calling?

[cmotherofpirl]

There is no rule that says an ex-Anglican priest has to become a Roman Catholic one either.

I think its a mistake that we allow Deacons to have relations with their wives.  This is a clear break from tradition too. 

It has been the constant tradition of the Church that clerics are celibate.  Even married clerics had to take a promise of celibacy (as opposed to just chastity, which in a marriage would allow for sex).

I'll be sure to email this to the married deacons I know. :)

[BLAZEr]

Blazer, the implications of that are huge! It would mean that the wife would have to have the same kind of calling as her husband, since divorce isn't permitted in the Catholic church.  What if she didn't feel she had that sort of calling?

Then he shouldn't be ordained. I mean, this is not unlike Christ saying that you have to leave father and mother and brother and sister . . . and wife

I left my celibacy book at home (at at the Youth Office right now) but I will have to bring it by. Its by Scepter Press and it treats this whole topic very well.

And yes, it would be a big shock to most Deacons to learn that the Church used to require celibacy of its Deacons. Don't even get me started on the god-awful formation most Deacons get.

[cmotherofpirl]

This, of course, depends on the diocese of which you are speaking.

Men do need their wives permission before becoming deacons.

And deacons must promise not to remarry if their wife dies.

[BLAZEr]

Men do need their wives permission before becoming deacons.

And deacons must promise not to remarry if their wife dies.

AHHH a perfect opportunity:

Do you know why that is? They needed permission because they used to be celibates. Because it meant the wife was giving something up too . . . her marital rights.

And that's why they couldn't remarry . . . becuase they had already been promised celibacy so if they remarried they couldn't consummate their marriage to make it valid . . .

That's why the Church's teaching is that although a married man can get ordained, an ordained man can't get married . . .

[Ellenita]

Then he shouldn't be ordained

What if he felt that God was calling him to the Catholic church? Presumably, since the discussion was about married Anglican priests, he felt that God was calling him to be married to his wife when he was an anglican! This is really troubling me, especially since I think there will be many anglican priests who will want to join the Catholic church with the current potential schism, and there is a clear history in the anglican church of priests actively being encouraged to marry. I honestly find it diffcult to believe that God who has called two people to be together in marriage would then ask them to live a life together which was celebate. Why ask them to be married in the first place?

[BLAZEr]

Their priestly orders aren't valid in the Catholic church so they would all have to be re-ordained anyway. I have a friend who was Catholic became Anglican married, became a priest and recently converted . ..

He has not been allowed to be a priest even though he was ordained by a validly ordained bishop (though schismatic, an ex-catholic bishop). He is just a regular layman in the Catholic Church, while his bishop investigates this . . .

I would say that the Church probably will make allowances for any Anglican priests who come over to the Catholic Church. There is an order of goods, and I think Unity is probably going to outweight the celibate demands of the priesthood.

And to be perfectly honest, I'm articulating the tradition but I am not sure what recent practice is. For all I know currently married priests are allowed to have sex with their wives, I don't know . . .

[ironmonk]

16 years after the Angelican's split, the king changed the ordination process. 83 years after that, they realized that they were invalid orders, but it was too late, everyone with valid orders were already dead.

Hence, the reordination when Angelican's come home to Rome.

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God Bless,

ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

If your friend was Catholic, who became a married Anglican priest, and reconverted he may not become a Catholic priest.

They just talked about this on EWTN last week.

Converted married Anglican priests are permitted to have sex with their wives.

[hyperdulia again]

well, he is a priest if he was ordained by a validly ordained bishop (even if he's a schismatic)..he just can't use his priestly faculties.