Comparing the Pope and Theosophy

[thessalonian]

[quote name='james' date='Jan 4 2005, 02:14 AM'] Although I don't agree with the thesis being presented, I do believe that the Pope's statements seem to lack the zeal of many former popes who when addressing other religions would usually make the point in no uncertain terms that the Catholic church is the one true church.

The thing that seems to be missing is the zeal in seeking converts. Yes, people will be judged according to what has been revealed to them, but we should still be seeking to convert non-Catholics to the true faith. [/quote]
It is not a lack of zeal at all. It is two sides of the coin. NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHUCH is one side. But this includes the will, and light one has been given. But why can we not be just as zeolous about the Samaritan and the Three Wise Men and Cornelius before he recieved baptism. He was at that time "a righteous and God fearing man.". Do you think the Lord did not want the Apostles to be zeolous about the Good Samaritan who did what a priest and levite who did have the fullness of the truth of Judaism. He said "GO AND DO LIKEWISE" with regard to the samaritan. Now Samaritans were a product of the mixing of the Jews with the Assyrians from the northern captivity. Thus the Jewish religion was intermixed with paganism. The God of Israel was accepted but as one of the Gods. So if Jesus had the zeal you are talking about he would have said "you should at least do what this damnable pagan did.". But the Samaritan was living according to the law written on his heart and that is why it was commendable. Romans 2:15 (max quotes it above). Praise GOD for the Samaritan's example. I dont care if he was pagan. He was doing what was right in the sight of GOD almighty. Are there "good samaritans" today who are not expressly Christian but provide an example for us as Christ held this man up in high regard? I have little doudt, yet some of you (Budge) want to put everyone down that is not Christian.

Blessings

Edited January 4, 2005 by thessalonian

[Budge]

Someone believing that a few people go to hell does not cancel what is basically Universalism. You can replace that word with Theosophy as I said before.

I dont think people here understand how denying Christ by saying other religions lead to Him is an affront.

It is a denial of John 14.

There are Catholics who have noticed this, and who have condemned the Pope for His Universalism. So I know this is not a conclusion that I ONLY came to. I know most of them have been banned from this board. Even on the Freeper religion board, I see endless Catholics that SHARE these opinions about the POPE.

How is the gospel being preached when Muslims are told they already know God? Even Mother Teresa never directly witnessed the gospel and in Time magazine said those quotes about being a "good" Buddhist and Muslim.

Where is the zeal in teaching that all religions can lead to heaven?

THe definition of Universalism is far more complex then just saying it means no one goes to hell. It is far more complex then that so you have brought up a strawman Ironmonk

All of you are unaware of the NEw Age infiltration that has led to this denial of Christ .

When the Pope had those of false religions praying to their false gods at Assisi how was that preaching the gospel?

[url="http://www.letusreason.org/Curren31.htm"]http://www.letusreason.org/Curren31.htm[/url]




[quote]  Universalism- a problem for everyone

(snip)


Today we are seeing the Church become seeker friendly, so much so that a universalist view on salvation is becoming accepted. Called by various names such as the “Wider Mercy Doctrine,” “The Gospel of Inclusion” it presupposes that salvation can be given to a person who has not heard the gospel or of Jesus Christ. [b]Those who hold this view teach that God grants salvation to those who are sincere in their religious beliefs, no matter how false those beliefs are. This of course has been a held position of most of the world religions that already do not believe there is any one way to God. The end result is that not just those who believe in the gospel will be in heaven but many who only believe in God.[/b]

The unity that many desperately are now seeking is expanding to acceptance of other religions. Ecumenism is one of the major means the New Age movement intends to lead those who may not be willing to co-operate on an interfaith level. With the acceptance of other religions comes a universal view of mankind. A good portion of Christianity is already on the road of being brought together under a false unity that excludes doctrine, so it is not surprising to see individuals and denominations willing to first merge with other compatible religions. As the barriers are let down incompatible religions will become the next step. For Christians it starts by uniting with Roman Catholicism’s moral agenda, what many don’t know is that Catholicism teaches that “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”(Catholic Catechism). [b]The Pope unites in prayer and effort with Hinduism, the traditional African religions of animism, he acknowledges Buddhism and approves of the Dalai Lama who is regarded as a living deity. If you are involved in ecumenism you’re already connected to this. Ecumenism unchecked leads to interfaith which will eventually move the church into universalism[/b].[/quote]

Edited January 4, 2005 by Budge

[thessalonian]

"Where is the zeal in teaching that all religions can lead to heaven? "

You continue to twist and distort church teaching to match your hatred for her. The Pope does not teach this. You are putting words in his mouth and you fail to deal with my example of the Good Samaritan being held high as an example of Christian behavior. You see he was living the Gospel even though he had not had it preached to him, for he was following what was written by God on his heart. It is the truth that saves and every man has this truth written on his heart. If he rejects it he will of course be damned. But you say all Samaritans are damned. You say there are only good Samaritans in the Church today and nowhere else. You are one of the pharasees that Jesus POed with his story of the Good Samaritan. You can continue to ignore the Good Samaritan if you like. But then you will never grasp what the Pope says in the quotes above and you will continue to hate him. I wonder how you would have felt about Christ holding the GS up as an example for you to follow. Dang pagan.

Blessings

[phatcatholic]

can a moderator please fix budge's link so that this thread won't be messed up anymore?

[thessalonian]

Budge,

I need you to answer me. Is there anyone today that is not Christian that Christ would hold up if he walked this earth as someone who was doing what the Gospel required of him? A good samaritan? Are there any Cornelius's that, though they have not converted to the faith, are "righteous and God fearing"?

I do hope you will answer directly for once and not put words in any Catholics mouth.

God bless you

[Budge]

Question for all of you.

Does being Christian matter?

I never said there was no such thing as a good person in false religions. God will judge them according to what they have been given. The man in the Amazonian jungle who has never heard the gospel...would be a case of that. The Dalai Lama who surely through his world travels and education has encountered the gospel would NOT even though the Catholic Church more and more seems to see his salvation as a given since he is so "kind" and "good"

The problem is where does this stuff lead...

...."it doesnt matter if you are a Christian or not as long as you are a "good" person"

Being good doesnt save anyone.

Salvation is in Christ.

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jan 4 2005, 06:16 PM'] Question for all of you.

Does being Christian matter?



[/quote]
Of course it does. Without the grace of knowing God through His Church and the opportunity to receive the sacraments, it makes it harder for people to be saved. That doesn't mean that non-Christians are definitely, without-a-doubt damned, but not knowing Christ, even if one isn't culpably ignorant, doesn't help. We have to realize, however, that God gives everyone sufficient graces to be saved up until the point of death.

[quote]I never said there was no such thing as a good person in false religions. God will judge them according to what they have been given. The man in the Amazonian jungle who has never heard the gospel...would be a case of that. The Dalai Lama who surely through his world travels and education has encountered the gospel would NOT even though the Catholic Church more and more seems to see his salvation as a given since he is so "kind" and "good"[/quote]

It's not for us to judge whether or not the Dalai Lama has truly encountered the Gospel and would thus go to hell if he died tonight. Only God could know that. And the Catholic Church has never made any kind of judgment on whether the Dalai Lama would be saved or damned. In addition, the Church has never taught that all one needs to do to get to heaven is to be kind and good.

[quote]The problem is where does this stuff lead...

...."it doesnt matter if you are a Christian or not as long as you are a "good" person"

Being good doesnt save anyone.[/quote]

Again, the Church has never taught that it does. Nor does it teach that being a good person is what truly matters.

[quote]Salvation is in Christ.[/quote]

That's exactly what the Catholic Church teaches, Budge. Please read what we say and think about it instead of repeating the same old misconceptions that we've called you on many times before.

[thessalonian]

Budge,

Now were getting somewhere. You did a pretty good job of stating your belief in invincible ignorance. That's Catholic doctrine. hate ta tell ya. .

The fact is the Pope has never said the Dali or anybody else is going to heaven. Neither has he said they are going to heaven. He just takes the position that it is not our place to judge those in ignorance as to whether their ignorance is culpable or not. Do you happen to have a tape recording of what was said to the Dali regarding the Gospel. The exact minute second of the day that he had it preached correctly to him so that he was damned if he rejected it? Do you know full well that he had it preached correctly such that he was damned in rejecting it. I don't. You just assume without knowing. That's judging and it's the type of judging we are commanded not to do.

Yes, being Christian matters alot. We don't believe in OSAS and thus believe that the pagan who is in ignorance, though he may be rigtheous and God fearing, needs the daily grace of God in Christianity, in the sacraments, to assure his path to the kingdom of heaven. Further it is sad to leave someone in ignorance, stuggling with things that are contrary to God's law which do harm to them and those whom they love. Not to mention the peace they have in knowing Christ.

Blessings

Edited January 4, 2005 by thessalonian

[Apotheoun]

The Catholic Church never sees the salvation of any man as a given; rather, salvation is a gift of God, and so anyone who is saved is saved by God's grace alone, which necessarily flows to him from the Catholic Church, even if he is invincibly ignorant of this fact.

As far as interreligious dialogue is concerned, it is focused primarily on promoting the common good of society in a pluralistic age, that is, it is meant to lessen tensions between groups and individuals and promote peace in an imperfect world. Secondarily, it is an attempt to discover those [i]goods[/i] present within the existing religious tradition of a culture, in order to promote that which is compatible with the Gospel, and in the process to use those [i]goods[/i], which are a true [i]preparatio evangelica[/i], in order to bring people to the fullness of truth that is found in Christ's Catholic Church alone. Interreligious dialogue is never to be thought of as a substitute for evangelization, because spreading the good news of Christ is, and always will be, the Church's primary purpose.

As Pope John Paul II has written, "Christ is the one Mediator between God and man and the sole Redeemer of the world." [Apostolic Letter [u]Tertio Millennio Adveniente[/u], no. 38]

God bless,
Todd