Comparing the Pope and Theosophy

[Budge]

This is an essay, a work in progress. It is not finished yet, needs more development and editing, but wanted to post what I have so far. For those who have seen this, its a work on progress so I may have added on to it here.

[font size=4]Preaching the New World Order with the Pope and Theosophist Alice Bailey:

For thirteen years after living as a Cradle Catholic, I was in the Unitarian Universalist church from age 18-30. For those who do not know what Uuism is, the UU church is a creedless extremely liberal church that teaches the tenets of the New Age, Humanism, and Theosophy. Unitarians in religious belief range from out and out atheists to avowed pagans. Check out www.uua.org to understand more. Little did I know as I made my venture back into the Catholic church going to what I knew as “Christian” that the Vatican would support many of the same agendas as the Theosophical Unitarian Universalists. The UU church at its core teaches that all religions lead to god—or an archetype of God.

I have explained Uuism but let me explain the tenets of Theosophy, Theosophists believe that all religions hold truths and that all religions at the core lead to God. Founded in 1890s By Madame Blatvasky, Theosophy forms the under foundation for even the modern new Age movement. The prevailing message of Theosphy which sounds just peachy-keen to the unsaved is that of “unity”. Unity of thought, beliefs and of the world. Religions are taught as being unified in core beliefs “All religions lead to god” and a panthestic notion of god promoted.

While UU I learned at the foot of my very liberal ministers who were World Federation supporterss and one interim minister who was even a signer of the second Humanist Manifesto that the only way peace could come to the world was by all religions coming together for peace and by mankind giving up divisions. I have explained some about Uuism but one main activity of UU services, is the combining of the prayers of many religions from Hindu invocations to what is called the Great Invocation. Our services would include Hindu chants, Buddhist readings and poetry. God was taught as being present in all the worlds great religions and even the lesser ones even non-theistic UUs aspired to a notion of people searching for the same great truths in this array of false religions or an “archetype” of God.

Christianity and Judaism were considered as oppressive religions in Unitarian Universalism that denied the “truths” of other world cultures. I often would hear my Unitarian ministers railing away about how Christianity brought nothing but misery to world. Alice Bailey one of Theosophy’s greatest leaders went on to say that the world's only hope laid in a new universal religion.

Here is what Alice Bailey had to say about the worlds new Universal religion:
[i]Today, slowly, the concept of a world religion and the need for its emergence are widely desired and worked for. [b]The fusion of faiths is now a field for discussion[/b]. Workers in the field of religion will formulate the universal platform of the new world religion. It is a work of loving synthesis and will emphasize the unity and the fellowship of the spirit. This group is, in a pronounced sense, a [159] channel for the activities of the Christ, the world Teacher. The platform of the new world religion will be built by many groups, working under the inspiration of the Christ.[/i] see note (1)

Like Alice Bailey, The Unitarian Church supports the idea of all religions and even in their case non-religions joining together. One logo for the UU church is a wheel of circles, with each circle containing a symbol for a world religion ranging from a Buddha to the Islam ***** for God. One main UU tenet is that world peace can be achieved once man realizes that the worlds religions all reach for the same thing and share a "UNIVERSAL" commonality.


The Pope too has called for the fusion of faiths also , even having meetings where the workers of religion all stand on the same platform of peace. Here is what the Pope had to say about this very recently..

[i]"The history of relations among Jews, Christians, and Muslims shows both lights and shadows, and unfortunately some sad moments," the Pope said. In today's dangerous world, he continued,[b] there is an "urgent need" for the world's great religions to come together,[/b] in light of their "common desire that all men be purified of the hatred and evil that always threaten peace." [/i](2)

Both Alice Bailey, The Unitarian Universalist Church and the Pope desire for the worlds religions to join together as one. The Pope calls for purification of hatred and evil. Bailey for loving synthesis. At the core what is the difference?

The Pope has taught over and over that the Seeds of the Word lie in all religions which is an affront to every born again Christian who realizes the uniqueness of Christ. Stripping down the gospel by portending to witness by praising other religions has been the new agenda. Such beliefs have only strengthened in the Catholic church since the instituting of Vatican II beginning with Nostra Aetate. Within the last 20 years, such meetings such as the one in Assisi where the Pope met with Vooduns, Buddhists, Hindus, Conficians, Muslims and more and sponsered prayers to all these religions false gods in praying for peace have only strengthen the idea in that Catholic church that false religions lead to god even if in a deficient way. Somehow this was supposed to promote the Christian gospel without compromising it. Not one person was told that to earn eternal life they had to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They were instructed instead to pray to their false gods for “peace”. This of course went against Biblical mandates to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Many Catholic apologists often try to quell the concerns of other Catholics and Christians concerned about these actions by saying that interfaithers intend to introduce Jesus after a relationship is established. I have yet to read of this happening. At most of these meetings proletyzation is outlawed.

Pope John Paul II has eased out and out message of Theosophy with a Christian veneer out into the world. Believing as New Agers do, in a so called cosmic Christ though not openly admitting it, the idea is still there. The Pope has taught that all humanity has possibility of being saved by Christ even those who do not accept Him or the gospel. Now Christians know God can do whatever God desires and we cannot judge the same as God, but this goes totally against the Bible….(add verses) In fact the Pope makes this clear in his encyclical [b]“Guadium et Spes”[/b]

[i]“Religious differences reveal themselves as pertaining to another order…[b]It is possible that men not be conscious of their radical unity of religion and of their insertion in the very same divine plan. But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it”[/b] [/i](Guadium Et Spes 22)

Through this idea of a supposed unconscious relationship with Jesus Christ, The Pope promotes basically a panethistic Christ through all religions.

Alice Bailey promoted the same universal religion—saying all were under the same “cosmic Christ” The brotherhood of man, universal brotherhood are inherently Theosophical teachings. Alice Bailey over and over refers to THE CHRIST, in her writings, a figure that will unite all religions in love.

In fact Alice Bailey says of The Christ will do the same thing and repeats the Popes belief that God works through all religions.

:[i][b]God works in many ways, through many faiths and religious agencies; [/b]this is one reason for the elimination of non-essential doctrines. By the emphasizing of the essential doctrines and in their union will the fullness of truth be revealed. This, the new world religion will do and its implementation will proceed apace, after the reappearance of the Christ. [/i](3)

The Unitarian Universalist church promotes the idea of a Cosmic Christ. With metaphysical clubs announcing over to New Age participants that there have been many Christs ranging from Buddha to Jesus-the UU church promotes this idea too. In fact I was among the UUs that once believed this. I saw Jesus Christ as a good prophet with wisdom on the same level as Muhammed and Siddhartha--(Buddha).

While the Bible clearly teaches divisions between those of God--:’Children of God” and those not of God—The Pope includes all in a new Age blend where even false religions are seen as ripe for the taking and pathways to heaven under the Novus Ordo umbrella.

Unity is the highest good in Theosophy and for 100 years the early tenets of what is known in today’s New Age movement clamored for both. Todays its liberal Protestant churches and the Vatican clamoring for the same thing with even one Cardinal stating “Dialogue or die!”

Theosophists believe in total unity, unity of thought, action, belief, everything is one, all religions are one.
Those who refuse are seen as being in the way.

While Catholics point to the Pope’s obvious universalism as a supposed new way that the Pope plans to bring peace and THEN introduce Christ to others, it is obvious within the Popes words that he does believe pathways to God do exsist in other religions. One obvious example of this is documents like Dominus Iesus stating that salvation only exsists in the Catholic church but leaving out the fact the Catholic Church umbrella has is being expanded day by day perhaps one day to include Hindus and Buddhists

Cardinal Arinze’s book…[i]The Solidarity of the World’s Religions[/i] shows that the one world religion theme is promoted Vatican Wide. Arinze considered one of the leading candidates for the next Pope writes “With reference to other religions, the Church sees a great difference between them and herself,” Cardinal Arinze said. “The other religions are ex-pressions of the human soul seeking God, with some beautiful insights” Arinze goes on to point out errors in other religions but also speaks of their “treasures”. Rather following then the Bible which speaks of children of darkness and those being led into the ditch by the blind (false religions), The Vatican promotes the Syncretistic religion of the New World Order. While admitting the differences of Christianity, denied is the uniqueness of Christ. They teach over and over that
God is to be found in the world’s false religions.

When it comes right down to it, John Paul II and these other leaders are universalists who believe as long as someone is sincere and good they can be saved and that non-Christians can get to heaven without saving faith in Christ. The New World religion will be Interfaithism, that any religion as long as the participant is sincere are all valid pathways to God.

At one point the Pope goes as far to label prayers to false Gods as valid and called by the Holy Spirit
[i]“All authentic prayer is called forth by the Spirit, The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into the world and who became flesh in Christ Jesus. They are together an effect of the spirit of truth operation outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills”.[/i] It gets even better.

At another time the Pope writes:[b] “The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic ex-pressions of prayer. “The Spirits prescence and activity, “ as I wrote in the encyclical Letter, Redemptoris Missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples and cultures and [u] religions [/u] [/b]

The Pope sums up his Universalist beliefs in this one sentence “It will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.(*4)[/font]

(1)http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=Alice+Bailey+and+universal+religion&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/reappearance/reap1046.html&w=alice+bailey+universal+religion&d=75996C6FFE&icp=1&.intl=us

(2)POPE SAYS GREAT RELIGIONS MUST UNITE FOR PEACE
Vatican, Jan. 19 (CWNews.com)

(3)http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=Alice+Bailey+and+universal+religion&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/reappearance/reap1046.html&w=alice+bailey+universal+religion&d=75996C6FFE&icp=1&.intl=us

(*4) Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue-Congregation for The Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991 n29; L’Ossertavore Romano English Edition, 1 July 1991, p.III).

[i][font color=blue size=4]2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.[/font][/i]

[thessalonian]

The views of Catholicism regarding various religions is not Universalism which teaches that everyone ends up in heaven and one religion is as good as another. No matter how you slice the statements you have quoted from JP II, if you read all of what he says (such as Dominus Iesus) he does not teach universalism. THe Catholic Church and the Pope do teach that people go to hell. Just not everyone you would like to go to hell. We do not teach that one religion is as good as another as your post implies. "THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH" should be evidence enough of that. But that will be your next post. "The Catholic Church says all who are not Catholic are going to HELL". What you are missing in all of this can be found in the stories of the Three Wise Men, the Good Samaritan, and, and Cornelius, none of whom were Jews or Christian. It is spoken of in Romans 2:15 where it says that God's laws are implanted in all men's hearts and some Gentiles actually follow them without having them in writing. (i.e. the scriptures). Yet clearly the Holy Spirit was working in each of them. Blessings though.

Edited January 3, 2005 by thessalonian

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jan 3 2005, 08:53 PM'] The views of Catholicism regarding various religions is not Universalism which teaches that everyone ends up in heaven and one religion is as good as another.  No matter how you slice the statements you have quoted from JP II, if you read all of what he says (such as Dominus Iesus) he does not teach universalism.  THe Catholic Church and the Pope do teach that people go to hell.  Just not everyone you would like to go to hell.  We do not teach that one religion is as good as another as your post implies.  "THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH" should be evidence enough of that.  But that will be your next post.  "The Catholic Church says all who are not Catholic are going to HELL".  What you are missing in all of this can be found in the stories of the Three Wise Men, the Good Samaritan, and, and Cornelius, none of whom were Jews or Christian.  It is spoken of in Romans 2:15 where it says that God's laws are implanted in all men's hearts and some Gentiles actually follow them without having them in writing. (i.e. the scriptures). Yet clearly the Holy Spirit was working in each of them.    Blessings though. [/quote]
Budge...

How many Catholics have to tell you this before it sinks in?

Maybe you don't understand what Universalism is....

[b]Universalism:[/b] n : the theological doctrine that [u][b]all [/b][/u]people will eventually be saved
[url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=universalism"]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=universalism[/url]

Translation... no one goes to hell.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited January 4, 2005 by ironmonk

[Budge]

That is a very simple definition.

Thats like me defining Catholicism in one sentence. Try it.

It is odd that you would seek to try and tell someone that WAS A UNIVERSALIST for 13 years what it is like I didnt know...

Universalism is far more complex then just believing all people go to heaven. It also can mean you believe all religions lead to heaven. The Pope doesnt cancel out the fact he is a universalist by believing a few end up in hell, the fact remains if he believes members of false religions can go to heaven, that is Universalism.

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< universal grammar Universalist >

u·ni·ver·sal·ism (yn-vûrs-lzm) KEY

NOUN:

Universalism
Theology The doctrine of universal salvation.
Unitarian Universalism

Anyhow I think your nickeling and diming me to death to avoid a hard topic.

Replace the word Universalist with Theosophist or Freemason if the word Universalist doesnt work for you.

[Apotheoun]

Why is this thread wider than all the others? It is annoying.

[Benedict]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jan 3 2005, 08:17 PM'] It is odd that you would seek to try and tell someone that WAS A UNIVERSALIST for 13 years what it is like I didnt know... [/quote]
Pot calling the kettle black, Budge?

I am not sure specifically why it is so wide but it has to do with the formatting in Budge's first post.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:21 PM'] Why is this thread wider than all the others? It is annoying. [/quote]
Because of his oversized link.

[Benedict]

Budge is female.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:17 PM'] That is a very simple definition.

Thats like me defining Catholicism in one sentence. Try it.

It is odd that you would seek to try and tell someone that WAS A UNIVERSALIST for 13 years what it is like I didnt know...

Universalism is far more complex then just believing all people go to heaven. It also can mean you believe all religions lead to heaven. The Pope doesnt cancel out the fact he is a universalist by believing a few end up in hell, the fact remains if he believes members of false religions can go to heaven, that is Universalism.

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< universal grammar Universalist >

u·ni·ver·sal·ism    (yn-vûrs-lzm) KEY 

NOUN:

Universalism
Theology The doctrine of universal salvation.
Unitarian Universalism

Anyhow I think your nickeling and diming me to death to avoid a hard topic.

Replace the word Universalist with Theosophist or Freemason if the word Universalist doesnt work for you. [/quote]
Budge,

Simply put, you don't know what you are talking about.

"universal salvation" means NO ONE will go to hell.

The Pope and the Church are nothing close to a universalist line of thought.

Spend more time in scripture study and the writings of the first Christians and you would learn a lot.

[b]Romans 2:12 [/b]
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
[b]13 [/b]For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
[b]14 [/b]For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
[b]15 [/b]They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
[b]16 [/b]on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.


This is clear that those who do not know the law (Christ Jesus is the new law), the law is written on their hearts and that is how they will be judged by.

The above is clear that those who have not heard the Gospel of Christ will be justified differently than those who have heard the Gospel.


This IS NOT universalism. If you think it is, then you don't know what it means... and it doesn't matter that you were a "universalist" for 13 years, because that only means that you didn't know what it meant for those 13 years. There are many people who claim to be Catholic and they have no clue about the Catholic Church... examples: JFK, John Kerry, Ted Kennady, Tom Daschle, Arnold Swatzenagger, etc...



[b]Universalism[/b]
[b]Encyclopædia Britannica Article [/b] (ever hear of this 'little' publication)
belief in the salvation of all souls.
...
The Enlightenment was responsible for mitigating the sterner aspects of Calvinistic theology and preparing the way for the reemergence of the doctrine of universal salvation. The Universalists believed it impossible that a loving God would elect only a portion of mankind to salvation and doom the rest to eternal punishment. They insisted that punishment in the afterlife was for a limited period during which the soul was purified and prepared for eternity in the presence of God.

The forerunner of Universalism in the United States was George De Benneville (1703–93), who in 1741 migrated from Europe to Pennsylvania, where he preached and practiced medicine. The early Universalist movement was given its greatest impetus by the preaching of John Murray (1741–1815), who moved from England to colonial America in 1770. He propagated the doctrine throughout most of the colonies, often against much opposition from orthodox Christians who believed that Universalism would lead to immorality.

The Universalism of Murray was a modified Calvinism. Near the close of the 18th century Universalists were to follow Hosea Ballou in rejecting Calvinistic tenets. Ballou introduced a Unitarian conception of God and reinterpreted the atonement: the death of Jesus was not a vicarious atonement for the sins of mankind but rather a demonstration of God's infinite and unchangeable love for his children. Ballou also put great stress on the use of reason in religion.


"Universalism." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2005. Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service.
3 Jan. 2005 [url="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9074361"]http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9074361[/url].




Budge... even the Universalist Church says you are wrong....

Do you know more about the Universalist Church than they do?

[url="http://www.uua.org/info/origins.html"]http://www.uua.org/info/origins.html[/url]

...universal salvation. This was the belief [u][i][b]that no person [/b][/i][/u]would be condemned by God to eternal damnation in a fiery pit. Thus a Universalist believed [b]that all people will be saved[/b]....






And most important, what Christ's Church has to say on it....
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15181a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15181a.htm[/url]


Get the facts.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited January 4, 2005 by ironmonk

[Budge]

"all people will be saved", that means all religions lead to god in Universalism.

Stop nickeling and diming the definition. I know how Universalism is practiced what is taught.

And if the only thing you can rest on is that the Pope teaches some people go to hell so that supposely means he is not a Universalist, that is a very weak position given the breaking of the first commandment, given the inclusiveness shown towards false religions.

[hyperdulia again]

Budge you did it. I'm convinced! I think I'll become a Methodist. You can go away now...Please?

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Now, now, play [i]nice[/i]...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jan 4 2005, 02:01 AM'] "all people will be saved", that means all religions lead to god in Universalism.

Stop nickeling and diming the definition. I know how Universalism is practiced what is taught.
[/quote]
No one is nickeling and diming it... it appears that you need to stop making a mountain out of a molehill for the definition.

The definition is that simple... If someone believes that any person will be in Gehenna (The lake of fire that burns with brimstone and sulfer - aka eternal damnation), then BY DEFINITION they ARE NOT a universalist

It's obvious you don't know, because you claim the Pope is a Universalist. Which proves you either don't know what the Pope is, don't know what a Universalist is, or you don't know either.


[quote]And if the only thing you can rest on is that the Pope teaches some people go to hell so that supposely means he is not a Universalist, that is a very weak position given the breaking of the first commandment, given the inclusiveness shown towards false religions.[/quote]

The Pope does not teach that most are going to Heaven.
The Pope does not break the first commandment... refer to the verse in Romans I quoted above.

There is no inclusiveness to false religions, there is a hope that they will come to Christ.

It is not our place to judge who will and who will not go to Heaven or Hell. That is the position of the Pope.

It seems as though you are having a hard time comprehending the basic logic of what all of the Catholics here have been telling you since you came to this board.

You are beginning to sound like Jack Chick, Ian Paisley, and Rick Jones. A broken record that has been repeatedly corrected but remains in the wrong.

Maybe you should actually read the entire writings that you attempt to use instead of taking things out of context. That would be the wise and Christian thing to do.

"POPE SAYS GREAT RELIGIONS MUST UNITE FOR PEACE" - This does not mean that all religions become one. Use your head and think of other contexts that "unite" can mean.... When democrats and republicans unite and vote the same way in the Senate, they don't join and become one. When the US Armed forces unite with British forces they don't become one country. Come on... a little common sense and knowledge with the English language could help you from making a fool of yourself. Uniting for peace... hmmm... ok. Let us all who are religious stop fighting.... That is what it means.


[quote]
[url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=27089"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=27089[/url]
Pope John Paul II said that the world needs the combined witness of Jews, Christians, and Muslims in support of peace.


"The history of relations among Jews, Christians, and Muslims shows both lights and shadows, and unfortunately some sad moments," the Pope said. In today's dangerous world, he continued, there is an "urgent need" for the world's great religions to come together, in light of their "common desire that all men be purified of the hatred and evil that always threaten peace." [/quote]


[b]Nothing more to be said on it, you are wrong and have amply been proven so.[/b]

God Bless,
ironmonk

[james]

Although I don't agree with the thesis being presented, I do believe that the Pope's statements seem to lack the zeal of many former popes who when addressing other religions would usually make the point in no uncertain terms that the Catholic church is the one true church.

The thing that seems to be missing is the zeal in seeking converts. Yes, people will be judged according to what has been revealed to them, but we should still be seeking to convert non-Catholics to the true faith.

Edited January 4, 2005 by james

[ironmonk]

[quote name='james' date='Jan 4 2005, 04:14 AM'] Although I don't agree with the thesis being presented, I do believe that the Pope's statements seem to lack the zeal of many former popes who when addressing other religions would usually make the point in no uncertain terms that the Catholic church is the one true church.

The thing that seems to be missing is the zeal in seeking converts. Yes, people will be judged according to what has been revealed to them, but we should still be seeking to convert non-Catholics to the true faith. [/quote]
I don't believe the Pope lacks zeal at all.... Those who read his writings will see that the Pope is doing nothing more than following the example of St. Paul.....


[b]1 Corin. 9:20 [/b]
To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law.
[b]21 [/b]To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law.
[b]22 [/b]To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.
[b]23 [/b]All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.


The Pope has been taking the Gospel to the world... the muslim... the jew... the buddist... the atheist... the protestant...


God Bless,
ironmonk