New Anti-Catholic - Please help

[ironmonk]

Here is a recent dialog with another anti-Catholic. Please help out by emailing this guy... since he no longer wants to dialog with me.

His page was so bad I just had to try...
[url="http://www.netease.net/members/buck/Textfile/to-romancatholic.htm"]http://www.netease.net/members/buck/Textfi...mancatholic.htm[/url]

It's a "letter" to all of us Catholics.

God Bless!
ironmonk

----- Original Message -----
From: Max
To: buck@netease.net
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Roman Catholic


Dear Buck,

I came across your page titled "If you are a Roman Catholic".
[url="http://www.netease.net/members/buck/Textfile/to-romancatholic.htm"]http://www.netease.net/members/buck/Textfi...mancatholic.htm[/url]

I am a Christian and it appears that someone has been telling you some major misinformation about us. Everything we do is for Christ. We believe the Pope is the successor of Peter - simply the head bishop. As St. Paul states that he was a "Father in Christ" so are all those who can trace their ordination to the Apostles.

I don't have time to correct all your errors, but here are some links where you can learn what we really believe...

[url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url]

[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url] - Over 2000 bible verses which show the Catholic faith

[url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url] - Very good resource which addresses a lot of the errors on your page.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_...Pope_Part_1.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.MoralTruth.com"]http://www.MoralTruth.com[/url]

[url="http://www.Phatmass.com"]http://www.Phatmass.com[/url] - has a good forum

[url="http://www.Catholicity.com"]http://www.Catholicity.com[/url]

[url="http://www.Vatican.va"]http://www.Vatican.va[/url]

[url="http://www.BaptistBoard.net"]http://www.BaptistBoard.net[/url] - a message board for Baptist, but has correct Catholic information on it



What does the Scriptures say that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is? (1 Tim. 3:15)

The answer is the Church of the Living God, which is the Catholic Church.

Happy New Year, Your Servant in Christ,
Max




[quote]
From: Buck Castleberry [mailto:buck@considerthis.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 8:24 PM
To: Max
Subject: Re: Roman Catholic


Dear Max,

I understand fully that you sincerely believe that you are a "Christian" and that the Roman Catholic Church is the "only true church," etc. I am sorry to have to disagree with you concerning both matters.

I will also tell you that you are sincerely wrong and I prove that on my web page. I have heard that same claim made by several Protestant denominations, by the way, and they can come a whole lot closer to proving it than you can. But they fall short too, as most of them do incorporate and inculcate some of your RC doctrines.

To begin with, the word "Christian" literally means "a follower of Christ." Tell me, did Yahushua (His real name as given at birth) worship His mother as you do? Now don’t try to tell me you don’t as that is denial of a very plain truth. He did NOT, and therefore neither should you, if you are a true follower. Did Yahushua fellowship on Sunday? Absolutely NOT! And therefore neither should you if you are a true follower. Did He ever tell anyone at anytime to "baptize" infants, or did He say, ". . those who believe"? If you have been an RC all your life, then you were "baptized" as an infant before you had sin and have never followed His commandment to be immersed to wash away your sins as an repentant and believing adult. Therefore, on that one fact alone you cannot be a "Christian."

You are an idolater too, even though I know you are going to tell me that you don’t worship those statues, pillars, relics, and other religious articles that adorn your various pagan temples.

Did you know that the statue outside the Vatican that is supposed to be Peter is in fact a pagan statue of Zeus? Check it out!

Another thing, why is the pope (literally father, which Yahushua said we must not spiritually call any man on earth) supposed to be the successor to Peter? Peter was the apostle to the Yahudiym (Jews) and NOT the Gentiles! That dubious honor fell to Paul. So if the pope was a true apostolic successor, it would have to be Paul who he succeeds.

Vatican hill is a graveyard from millennia past and that is how it got the place got its name. The word "vatican" relates to the howling of dogs and there were a lot of them howling around that cemetery every night as they dug up the dead human bodies and feasted on them. Now the pope and his vampires do the same thing to the spirits of those, such as yourself, who align themselves with that place.

Max, my heart breaks for you. You are an unwitting dupe of satan and his agent the pope and you are attempting to justify his "church." Come out of her, my people, was literally aimed by our Savior at all who follow those pernicious doctrines, such as Marianism, church tradition overrules scripture, "infant baptism," etc.

Son, I have been around this old world for a long time and believe me, I have come to my conclusions based on scripture, study, and experience. NOBODY has been telling me anything about your church or any other church that I have not taken the time and effort to thoroughly check out. I have done the necessary study, including talking to so-called lay members and clergy of many different varieties of "churches" and reading their literature, both pro and con, to come to my conclusions.

Now if you will really take a look at what you believe in comparison to what is said in scripture, I am sure that you will come to agree with me. But then, you think the pope can overrule scripture, don’t you!

In the Love and Service of Yahushua,

Buck


[/quote]



----- Original Message -----
From: Max
To: 'Buck Castleberry'
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:17 PM
Subject: RE: Roman Catholic


You do not know anything about the Catholic Church. We follow Christ.

Why do you listen to rumor mongers?

In this email and on your page are false accusations. We do not worship Mary, we are not idolaters, etc...

I'm going to correct your email in my following reply. I will give you references to what the Catholic Church really teaches.

If you would have went to any of the links that I have supplied you in my initial email, you would have seen that you have some major misunderstandings about the Catholic Church.

I've been reading the bible for over 25 years and I've been studying Christian history for over 16 years.

For you to prove the Catholic Church wrong, you must first know what the Catholic Church teaches.

If you love Christ, then you would love truth and you would go to a Catholic source to see what the Church teaches.

Here are a couple links again...

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url] - The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url] - Scripture

[url="http://www.ianpaisley.net/"]http://www.ianpaisley.net/[/url] - Many of the falsehoods about Catholics addressed

If you can prove the Catholic Church wrong using Scripture, the Catechism, and the first Christian writings that explain the Scriptures, then I will join whatever church you can show is true.

If you are a lover of Christ then I humbly ask you to go to the links that I provided and learn what we truly believe. If you are not a lover of Christ and do not go to the links, don't bother replying.


Your servant in Christ,
Max


[quote]
From: Buck Castleberry [mailto:buck@considerthis.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 7:01 PM
To: Max
Subject: Re: Roman Catholic


Max,

I was rather surprised that you even bothered to reply to my email. I am VERY serious about what I said in it and you ARE an idolater. Regardless of what you have deluded yourself into believing, the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are from satan and NOT from scripture.

You are NOT a Christian in the sense of that definition from scripture. You cannot follow someone whom you do not know, and you certainly do not know Christ.

I have been studying scripture for a few years longer than you and apparently with a different motive in mind. I study it to discover the truth of what it says while you "study" it to find things that support your beliefs.

The rumor mongers I have listened to have been practicing Roman Catholics and that includes priests and even the pope himself. What I hear from them confirms the lie of the RC church.

You DO worship Mary. You DO worship the other "saints." The evidence of that is so plain that only a fool can not see it.

I don't know if you found my article all by itself or if you looked on my web page for it. In case it turned up singly in a web search, here is my page URL so that you can see what else TRUTH I have discovered in my studies. <http://www.considerthis.net>

By the way, my wife is an EX Roman Catholic. Her eyes are now wide open and she knows the error you teach and follow.

You cannot "correct" my email as it is already scripturally correct. All you can do is what the RC's have been doing for millennia and corrupt it with your satanic and paganistic ideas.

I have already looked at so many RC web sites that I can't even begin to name them all. I have probably looked at the ones you list too. I have had discussion after discussion with other deluded RC's such as yourself about those web sites and their content and see no reason to do it again. Either you are willing to believe scripture without the traditions of the church, which means that you will have taken your first step toward becoming a Christian, or you will  not. The choice is yours.

In Yahushua's Love and Service,

Buck
[/quote]


----- Original Message -----
From: Max
To: 'Buck Castleberry'
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Roman Catholic


You are wrong. We do NOT worship images. We do NOT worship Mary. We do NOT do or believe the things you claim.

You can't prove it with writings from the Catholic Church because you are wrong.

Your lack of effort to verify what you claim is a disgrace to the Christian name. Your very statements prove that you haven't even looked at what the Catholic Church really teaches.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url] - The Catechism of the Catholic Church (the main link is the US Conference of Catholic Bishops - [url="http://www.USCCB.org)"]http://www.USCCB.org)[/url]


Do you love gossip more than Christ? If you loved Christ, you would seek what the other side said.

I am Catholic, I know the Church teachings better than anyone who is not Catholic. I am the other side saying that you are wrong about the Catholic Church teachings, because the way of Christ is to correct our brethren.


So, I ask that you show me with links to the teachings of the Catechism which you claim... if you want, I can even give you the links which cover a topic.

All you have done so far is prove that you don't know what you are talking about. If you were correct you would easily be able to do the challenge that I asked of you and that is use the Catholic Church writings to show me that I am wrong. It's all online.

Your servant in Christ,
max


[quote]
From: Buck Castleberry [mailto:buck@considerthis.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:34 PM
To: Max
Subject: Re: Roman Catholic


Max,

Your statement that because you are catholic that you know your "church" better than anybody who is not is as fallacious a statement as I have ever seen. In fact the exact opposite is true. Since it is what you believe, you therefore refuse to see anything that refutes your beliefs, so the truth doe not enter into the equation. Someone who is outside an organization but investigating in an impartial manner, such as I have done whether you are willing to believe it or not, is in a much better position to determine the accuracy of the doctrines being taught. Someone who will look at history with an unbiased eye will see many things that the partial person who is defending his stand will ever hope to see. I have done that, impartially and as objectively as is humanly possible. Obviously you have not and will not. I guarantee that I absolutely know more about the true history of the catholic church, even before the great schism of Rome and Constantinople, than you would ever hope to.

The history of the catholic church from its very foundations is one of innocent blood being shed, sexual depravity, fiscal greed, and that history is still being written on those same terms today. I get that information from history books written by Roman Catholic historians, by the way, and not from someone with an axe to grind. You might do well to read some of them too.

I can claim, you can counterclaim, but the truth is still there and remains the truth. Regardless of what you choose to call what you do with all the statues, icons, and relics, I know and you know that it is worship in its basest form. If you do not worship Mary, then why do you pray to her? Why do you think she is co-redeemtrix with Yahushua? Scripture teaches that there is only ONE mediator between man and ‘Elohiym and that is Yahushua. Church tradition says Mary is a better mediator with Yahuwah than is her Son. Which one is right? I’ll take scripture every time!

For your information, below is a PARTIAL list of the books in my study library that I consult on matters of catholicism. It is not a comprehensive list by any means, but it should give you an idea that I have read some of the very things that you are attempting to get me to read now. I also think that you have no choice but to agree that these are accurate representations of your doctrines.

1. Key of Heaven, A Manual of Catholic Devotions with Epistles and Gospels

2. A Book of Catholic Information on Religious Topics, by the Reverend Winfrid Herbst, S.D.S.

3.A Catechism for Adult Catholics – Life in Christ

In those three books alone there is sufficient information to prove my statements and indict you as a pagan. If they are wrong, then you are right. But then if they are wrong, why would the various elements of the Catholic Press, sanctioned by the Catholic Church, publish them?

So you see, I have plenty of interest in what you believe and why, I just don’t have any interest in further argument with you about your satanic church and your inadequate defense of their pagan doctrines.

One day you will stand before the throne and answer for your beliefs, just as I also will. Are you convinced enough to bet your eternal life that you are right? I am!

Now, as I said, I have no further interest in debating this with you so please do not bother me anymore. Should you insist on continuing in this same vein, I will put your name on my ISP’s blocked senders list so I won’t be bothered with anymore of your garbage.

By the way, since you have not been immersed in accordance with scripture, there is NO WAY that you are or even can be "in Christ." Your "baptism" as an infant could not and did not do the trick!

Buck
[/quote]


Buck,

You do not know what you are talking about.

If you did, you would be able to do what I asked.

The statement was not a fallacy. I simply stated that I am Catholic, and I know the Church better than any non-Catholic. You sir have a comprehension problem in addition to the lies you post about the Catholic Church. I DID NOT state that the reason I know more about the Church is because I'm Catholic. The reason I know more about the Church than any non-Catholic is because I've been studying the Scriptures for 25 years and Christian history for 15 years in addition to in-depth readings of the Early Church Fathers for about 5 years now... Anywhere from ten to twenty hours a week. I've read the Scriptures multiple times... and I continue to read them everyday.

If you had the truth about the Catholic Church, then you would be able to show me with Catholic Church writings.

You don't. You are wasting my time and yours by not showing me with Catholic Church writings what you claim. I've read them many times, and I have NEVER seen what you claim.

If you loved Christ, you would show me with the Church writings that I was wrong, for Christ.
If you know what you have are lies on your webpage, then you will continue to avoid showing me where in the Catechism that proves what you claim.

By the way, I'm did not ask you to name the "Catholic" sites you've been to. I asked you to show me on the ones that I listed where what you claim is true.

Why do so many anti-Catholics believe it's ok to lie or propagate lies to try to pull people out of the Catholic Church? Ever hear of a little commandment "Do not lie"?

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url] - The Catechism of the Catholic Church (the main link is the US Conference of Catholic Bishops - [url="http://www.USCCB.org)"]http://www.USCCB.org)[/url]

It's time to walk the walk Buck... All you have to do to prove yourself correct is show me where in the Catechism is everything you claim. I've provided the links.

"No pleasure is comparable to the standing upon the vantage-ground of truth." - Francis Bacon

If you loved Christ, you could and would show me with the Catholic Church writings that I was wrong, for Christ.
If you know what you have are lies on your webpage, then you will continue to avoid showing me where in the Catechism that proves what you claim, and it would show that you don't love Christ.

If you know that what you have on your page are lies, how can you in good conscience call yourself a Christian?

The way of Christ is love and truth... not lies and deceit.

Your Servant in Christ,
max

[Theoketos]

This dude is for sure a Mason...

[cathqat]

:rotfl:

[thessalonian]

I will say one thing he's right about in some sense. Catholicism demands a verdict. Too many Protestants either don't understand what the Church teaches and so consider us brothers and sisters. But in truth if we are wrong we are pagans. I bow down before something that looks like bread and something that tastes like wine and pray. If the miracle of transubstantiation does occur (it does) then a Protestant verdict must be that we in fact are breaking the first commandment, which is akin to killing a neighbor in cold blood or stealing or an adulterous affair. But of course the miracle takes place. My point is that we need to be that sure of what we believe and it is such a great mystery that we dare not leave them in their indifferentist opinion that we are just another Christian denomination. We are not. We are THEE denomination. The fullness of the truth. Our beliefs demand such a verdict be rendered.

God bless

[musturde]

Only problem is, he hates protestants too hahaha.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jan 3 2005, 12:49 PM'] I will say one thing he's right about in some sense. Catholicism demands a verdict. Too many Protestants either don't understand what the Church teaches and so consider us brothers and sisters. But in truth if we are wrong we are pagans. I bow down before something that looks like bread and something that tastes like wine and pray. If the miracle of transubstantiation does occur (it does) then a Protestant verdict must be that we in fact are breaking the first commandment, which is akin to killing a neighbor in cold blood or stealing or an adulterous affair. But of course the miracle takes place. My point is that we need to be that sure of what we believe and it is such a great mystery that we dare not leave them in their indifferentist opinion that we are just another Christian denomination. We are not. We are THEE denomination. The fullness of the truth. Our beliefs demand such a verdict be rendered.

God bless [/quote]
I don't necessarily agree. We don't worship bread and wine, we worship Jesus. If you try adoring Jesus in unconsencrated bread and wine, I wouldn't necessarily consider you having broken the first commandment. A little nuts maybe, but not idolatrious as your intent was to worship the King.

[thessalonian]

First of all, I am speaking from a Protestant perspective that what we worship is still just bread and wine. Of course we don't worship bread and wine. I would have to differ with you regarding idolatry of those who would worship bread and wine however. They may be in ignorance(from a Catholic perspective). At least I would hope they were. But the sin of idolatry does not go away due to ignorance. The just wouldn't know of their sin and so would not be culpable perhaps. If they were to worship unconsecrated bread and wine as Jesus they simply do not know him. Now I suppose it would be possible that a Catholic could worship what was not really consecrated bread and wine due to an invalid mass or someone using what they thought were consecrated hosts. That is a different matter. God searches the heart and that person is still worshipping in the spirit and truth of the Catholic faith.

Blessings

Edited January 3, 2005 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Brother Adam,

Let's put it this way. If a Mormon marries two women is he doing wrong? Yes. He may be ignorant of the wrong that he is doing but it is nevertheless wrong. By the way there are alot of Mormon polygamists in this country. It has the effects of sin, though he may not ackowledge them because of his ignorance but there are still consequences and effects on others.

Blessings

[conservativecatholic]

Buck's so called truths and facts of the Catholic Church are blatantly ignorant statements made by his desperate self.

I'll post what I sent him in a little while.

I'm mainly going to defend the fact that Catholics are indeed Christians and that the Catholic Church was the first Church established by Christ.

May God Bless!

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

He sounds like a clown. I can't discuss civily with clowns.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]I would have to differ with you regarding idolatry of those who would worship bread and wine however[/quote]

That's just it, the accidents remain even in the consencration. Our focus is never on the accidents or bread and wine in worship, it is on worshipping Christ. If Christ isn't there we are still not worshipping bread and wine.

Also first you say that intent does not matter, but then you say:

[quote]God searches the heart and that person is still worshipping in the spirit and truth of the Catholic faith.[/quote]

[Paladin D]

He's even against Protestants, there's no sense in debating with this man.

[thessalonian]

I'm having a nice little dialogue with him about the resacrifing of Christ and his non-sequitor about scandal in the Church. Needles to say he is not admitting any error.

[curtins]

what is this "buck" supposed to be??? is he a Jew? and who is Yahushua???? and what bible is he quoting from on his website? and who is Yahuwah??? and how can he tell US that we worship mary?!?!?! I mean its like telling someone what their favorite color is. its like you dont know!!! youre not the person!!! this guy cant be on the outside and tell those on the inside what they do or do not do. its simply ludacris. what a moron.

oh well I'll pray for him but hes still a moron.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jan 3 2005, 04:15 PM']
That's just it, the accidents remain even in the consencration. Our focus is never on the accidents or bread and wine in worship, it is on worshipping Christ. If Christ isn't there we are still not worshipping bread and wine.

Also first you say that intent does not matter, but then you say:

[/quote]
I understand your point. But I don't belive it valid. One might bow down before a rock out in the prarie and worship it as Christ ("the rock was Christ"). It would be his God, yet it is not a God. In the case of the Eucharist it is our true God. My point about the unconsecrated bread is not that we would be worshipping God if we worshipped that bread as God but that he would not hold us accountable for the idolatry. Now he may not be if someone worshipped bread in ignorance either. But from a Protestant perspective one who worships what looks like (and according to them is just) bread is worshipping a false God. To my knowledge the one I know do not hold to invincible ignorance. Therefore a logical conclusion would be that the worship of bread (what they think it is) would be idolatry. I hope that helps.

Blessings