...Why is it that...

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:38 PM'] The [i]entire[/i] church was corrupt. That's not nearly as minor as you're attempting to make it. [/quote]
The entire church wasn't corrupt at all. There were many reformers throughout the middle ages and many who were corrupt. That is the way the world works. The Cistercians reformed the monastic abuses. St. Francis of Assisi helped with spirituality. Various Saints held the papacy. Of course there were also abuses of the system but many of the so-called medieval mistakes actually came in the renaissance and the time period known as "the reformation." Indulgences and the sales of indulgences were systems mainly used by renaissance Italian popes. You really need to pick up a history book BEFORE you open your mouth.

[peach_cube]

Potheads are definitely not productive...except when they work in Pizza Shops. mmmmmm they make good pizza

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 07:37 PM'] This is going to [i]kill[/i] my case, but yes, we should. At least the elderly who do nothing for society and never will again. [/quote]
How do you justify that?

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:41 PM'] The entire church wasn't corrupt at all. There were many reformers throughout the middle ages and many who were corrupt. That is the way the world works. The Cistercians reformed the monastic abuses. St. Francis of Assisi helped with spirituality. Various Saints held the papacy. Of course there were also abuses of the system but many of the so-called medieval mistakes actually came in the renaissance and the time period known as "the reformation." Indulgences and the sales of indulgences were systems mainly used by renaissance Italian popes. You really need to pick up a history book BEFORE you open your mouth. [/quote]
The Crusades were a very morally good thing.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:43 PM'] The Crusades were a very morally good thing. [/quote]
I completely agree. If you want to talk crusades (my emphasis) and the reasoning, theology, and logic behind them, then you're going to get seriously burned. Go for it.

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:42 PM'] Potheads are definitely not productive...except when they work in Pizza Shops. mmmmmm they make good pizza [/quote]


[i]How do you justify that?[/i]

It's my personal belief that one's actual value is the value of one to society.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Alina, I'm very glad I brought you here. It's nice having medieval historian...

[drewmeister2]

Does anyone want to go to www.phatmass.com/chat to discuss this more?

Click [url="http://www.phatmass.com/chat"]here.[/url]

Edited January 2, 2005 by drewmeister2

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:44 PM'] Alina, I'm very glad I brought you here. It's nice having medieval historian... [/quote]
Anytime. I didn't think you'd convert me from Orthodoxy but I love the Church.

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:44 PM'] I completely agree. If you want to talk crusades (my emphasis) and the reasoning, theology, and logic behind them, then you're going to get seriously burned. Go for it. [/quote]
Mmkay...<3 religious imperialism.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 07:44 PM'] [i]How do you justify that?[/i]

It's my personal belief that one's actual value is the value of one to society. [/quote]
Yes, I know that. Thank you.

What I mean by "justify" is "what is your supporting argument for why your position reflects the univeral truth?"

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:46 PM'] Yes, I know that. Thank you.

What I mean by "justify" is "what is your supporting argument for why your position reflects the univeral truth?" [/quote]
I don't believe in a universal truth. My reasoning, though, is that society's progress is everything, which contradicts your theological beliefs.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 08:44 PM']

[i]How do you justify that?[/i]

It's my personal belief that one's actual value is the value of one to society. [/quote]
So how do you justify YOUR existance?

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:49 PM'] So how do you justify YOUR existance? [/quote]
Here's a bit...the correct spelling of "existance" is "existence". I educated you. Knowledge is power.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:45 PM'] Mmkay...<3 religious imperialism. [/quote]
Okay, bet you thought you could get away with that. But you can't!

The first Crusade was started not by the Catholic church perse but by the Turks of all people. The Arabs had been conquering Christian lands for close to 300 years at this point. The Turks were eating away at the Byzantine Empire's province of Anatolia. The Church in the East was in great danger of falling to Muslims.

So, Alexios Komnenos, Emperor of the Byzantines, sent a desperate letter to the Pope begging for mercenary soldiers to stem the tide of the Turks. What he got, was more than he bargained for: A crusade.

Now, why is this crusade justified? It is quite simple. At this time in the world there was no separation of Church and state. As the muslims inevitably taxed the hell out of Christians and denied them posts in conquered lands they were then coercing conversions to Islam. In effect, they were destroying Christianity. So, the Pope recognized (God bless him) that it was acceptable for the Church to defend itself from these incursions. The Crusades were not religious imperialism. They were DEFENSIVE and intended to fend off the already extant religious imperialism of the Muslims.

If you doubt the muslim threat at the time you only have to consider that they conquered all the way up to Southern France. That sounds dangerous to me...