...Why is it that...

[Tink]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:50 PM'] You again!
[/quote]
haha that's hysterical.

[i]Yes, nothing builds up a reputation of love like blowing up an abortion clinic.[/i]

Wow, a non sequitur if I've ever seen one. No one who has done, is doing, or will do something like that is to be considered a martyr. They're killing others in the process, which is completely contrary to what the Lord has asked of us.

[b]1 Corinthians 16:14 - Let all that you do be done in love. [/b]

Edited January 2, 2005 by Tink

[Pio Nono]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:15 PM'] I've always felt that a martyr was someone who intentionally gave their life for a cause...not someone who has a knife slipped between their ribs in their sleep...then again, I'm probably wrong. What I'm trying to say is that I don't consider missionaries who were killed to be martyrs. [/quote]
JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

If my presentation of your argument is correct, then you have no basis of asserting this. A missionary killed by locals is a person (x) who gave his/her life unto death for a cause (y). Seems like our missionaries fit your standard of martyrdom.

Then again, a belligerent custodian who gave his life in the fight for better push brooms would be a martyr to custodians everywhere, according to your argument.

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='Krush2k2' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:57 PM'] Ignorance is bliss [/quote]
Idiocy is orgasmic?

[i]Wow, a non sequitur if I've ever seen one. No one who has one, is doing, or will do something like that is to be considered a martyr. They're killing others in the process, which is completely contrary to what the Lord has asked of us.[/i]

...I don't think you're understanding this...I don't [i]care[/i] what you think your God asked of you. The abortion clinic bombers aren't martyrs because they aren't dying. And wouldn't blowing one up be a plus, as they're saving more lives than claiming?

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Jan 2 2005, 05:00 PM'] Then again, a belligerent custodian who gave his life in the fight for better push brooms would be a martyr to custodians everywhere, according to your argument. [/quote]
If he lost his life in a fight of some sort against his oppressors, yes, but he's still an idiot.

[Tink]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:54 PM'] But they're doing it through means of terror (convert or burn). Hence, terrorists.

And as Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, which do you think is more effective? [/quote]
First off, no missionary I know is doing such things. No one is saying 'convert or burn'. They are, with love, instructing those who are in need of the Lord.

Second, it does not matter which is growing faster. In the end, we know who will be victorious.

[b]Matthew 10:33 - but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. [/b]

[peach_cube]

Chris,

It seems to me that you are considering martyrdom to only be martyrdom if the person invoved knows that they will die? Or is it that you have a greater respect for the person who knows their life will be taken by an action than for someone killed because of their belief?

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='Tink' date='Jan 2 2005, 05:04 PM'] Second, it does not matter which is growing faster. In the end, we know who will be victorious. [/quote]
Yes. No doubt agnosticism or atheism will prevail.

ANYWHO...

I'm out for now.

Blessed be.
~Chris

[Chris Zewe]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Jan 2 2005, 05:04 PM'] Chris,

It seems to me that you are considering martyrdom to only be martyrdom if the person invoved knows that they will die? Or is it that you have a greater respect for the person who knows their life will be taken by an action than for someone killed because of their belief? [/quote]
I saw this after I posted my last bit...

That's a good question. I'm not sure. Probably the former, although I do have more respect for the one who knows his life will be claimed.

[Tink]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 05:02 PM'] ...I don't think you're understanding this...I don't [i]care[/i] what you think your God asked of you. The abortion clinic bombers aren't martyrs because they aren't dying. And wouldn't blowing one up be a plus, as they're saving more lives than claiming? [/quote]
Abortion clinic bombers aren't martyrs, you're right. Anyone who harms other people for the sake of his own cause, I believe, is not a martyr. Unless there are no means of protecting people against an aggressor, means of violence shouldn't be used. Peace is to be used at all times.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

Under his system, men who propogate the bombing of abortion clinics [i]and die[/i] (my edit) are martyrs. I guess my presentation of his argument was just fine.

[Tink]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Jan 2 2005, 05:09 PM'] JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

Under his system, men who propogate the bombing of abortion clinics [i]and die[/i] (my edit) are martyrs. I guess my presentation of his argument was just fine. [/quote]
Well, we have an entire [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=26602"]thread[/url] on this over at the debate table, and I think these are two separate issues.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 05:50 PM'] Yes, nothing builds up a reputation of love like blowing up an abortion clinic. [/quote]
Well, at least I'm glad we're avoiding ridiculously overblown stereotypes.

You know that famous abortion clinic in Dallas? The one which has been taking forever to build because the Christian contractors refused to hand over the supplies and boycotted anyone who did? Those contractors have access to how many tons of explosives? And yet...the building is still standing and performing abortions...

Theoketos and I went to pray in front of it just the other day. There were about six of us praying the rosary on the public sidewalk in front. Meanwhile, inside, children were being murdered in the safest place on earth: the womb.

Which side of this is following the peaceful policies you seem to be advocating?

[peach_cube]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 06:06 PM'] I saw this after I posted my last bit...

That's a good question.  I'm not sure.  Probably the former, although I do have more respect for the one who knows his life will be claimed. [/quote]
I can understand that. I feel while it is something that is to be repected there are still circumstances that come into play. For example, when the stock market crashed many a persons faced death and jumped out a window. This by in large was not looked upon as being respected, it may have taken courage or it may have just been being overcome by fear and desperation, or cowardice. Many people have great respect for Dr. Martin Luther King and Ghandi because of their non-violent protest. Dr. King could have died for the cause by walking into an Alabama police station and blowing himself up, instead he did more for the cause and was martyred for the cause.

Sometimes it takes far greater courage to face the difficult task and to try to see it to the end. Sometimes people are so scared to take that road that even death seems to be an easier road.

Edited January 2, 2005 by peach_cube

[spathariossa]

I'm amazed that nobody has brought up the fact that this person has a very protestant, literal, and non-scriptural view of Hell as an actual physical place where actual physical burning occurs. Hell is simply a separation from God. And you really can't blame Christians for being cruel or the religion for being elitist if that is the reality of hell. That would be like saying "I hate Christianity because separating myself from God leads to eternal separation from God." Oh yeah, that makes good sense.

Edit for more:

Secondly, the premise he has given us is completely nonsensical.

[quote]...when a Catholic (or Christian, or Jewish) clergymen is killed attempting to convert (read: impose his religion upon) others[/quote]

And STOP! I know you just added Christian and Jewish to appear to be less anti-Catholic but you've just made a serious error. Jews do not actively convert others or engage in missionary work. It is against their religion. Nor do they allow conversions for reasons such as marriage or other things. So right here you've shown your ignorance of at least one religion you're trying to speak out against.

Now, you say that conversion is necessarily imposing a religion on another person. First of all, the Catholic church does not allow for coersion to be used in the conversion process. Now of course this has been abused from time to time. I mean I think we all remember the Franciscans in Mexico in the 16th century. My beloved Teutonic Knights got a bit carried away in Prussia, etc etc. Yes, abuses of the system do happen. But even as far back as the Middle Ages it was illegal to convert by force. If you check out papal bulls from the 13th century or the writings of St. Bernard of Clairveaux then you'd know that.

So, if the official Church policy is against conversion through coersion, and since in modern times these abuses have been for the most part gotten rid of, then how can you claim the missionary is in any way imposing something on someone else? The person can only be converted of his own free will, and he is only preached to if he approaches and asks for it. Again we find your premise to be faulty and no doubt based upon stereotypes associated with evangelical protestants.

And then we can get into even trickier ground. For instance, your statement clearly shows you do not believe in absolute truth. Now while I could convince you that at least certain absolutes are required for a person to function psychologically, I won't do that. I'll merely state that as a Catholic I do believe in absolute truth and necessarily the absolute truth of the Catholic church. This isn't narrow minded, pig-headed, or ignorant. I'm aware of other religions, other beliefs, and other codes of conduct and I have dabbled in many of them. However, I have chosen of my own free will to believe in what the Catholic church teaches. You should respect that as I respect your right to believe in what you choose. However, from the Catholic point of view, I cannot be imposing my religion on you even if you feel that I am. Why? Because if I hold the truth to be absolute then I will treat it as such and you will feel imposed upon even if it is not my intent to do so.

I think it is pretty clear from your flippant responses and your initial post that you don't know much about Catholicism and that you don't care to know much about it. That's fine, but I don't know why you feel the need to enter a Catholic forum and post things that you hope will be inflammatory. Talk about impositions...

Edited January 2, 2005 by spathariossa

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 2 2005, 07:04 PM'] I'm amazed that nobody has brought up the fact that this person has a very protestant, literal, and non-scriptural view of Hell as an actual physical place where actual physical burning occurs. Hell is simply a separation from God. And you really can't blame Christians for being cruel or the religion for being elitist if that is the reality of hell. That would be like saying "I hate Christianity because separating myself from God leads to eternal separation from God." Oh yeah, that makes good sense. [/quote]
We're just used to him...he comes back every once and a while...