Q the Ninja Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Is our government Legitimate? Is it just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Define both, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewmeister2 Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 While I think our country is more just than some others, we still have alot of problems to work on. I learned that when I took Street Law last semester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamweaver Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 This reminds me of an English project we had last year, trying to come up with a utopian form of government and presenting it to the class. It was a blast. What is your definition of just government? I doubt it would be possible to have a completely fair government. Mankind has wants, greeds, differences in values and attitude. Our group eventually settled on an agrarian "Amish-like" kind of community, with emphasis on family, community and sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 [quote]Is our government Legitimate?[/quote] No [quote]Is it just? [/quote] No and frankly the last one is laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) Im guessing this is the yank one. If by Gov u mean Administration, this one is, the other one wasnt. [b]Is it just?[/b] Nope. Edited January 2, 2005 by Phatmasser777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q the Ninja Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 Hmm, anyone want to defend their arguments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q the Ninja Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 Legitimate - has a right to exist as government. Just - as a Catholic we can support it (not in all actions [unless you think that the government must do all just actions], but is just as a whole). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 [quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 2 2005, 12:46 PM'] Legitimate - has a right to exist as government. Just - as a Catholic we can support it (not in all actions [unless you think that the government must do all just actions], but is just as a whole). [/quote] According to those definitions... Legitimate? Yes. Just? I'm leaning toward yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 What is your definition of a just government? No government created by man can please everyone. Although a government can please a lot of people it cannot please everyone. If a government was formed from a community of like minded people, lets say a country that is completely Catholic, loyal to the Magisterium, even questioning but totally relying on the Magisterium to define truths, then something like that can work. The more a country has folks of varying views, religions and such then the more difficult it is to keep it just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamweaver Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 How could a government not be legitimate? I'm picturing something extreme, like the Nazi regime as not being legitimate form of government. As for whether our government is just, I'd say that it is very hard to have a completely just form of government. You can appease to the majority, but there will always be people with conflicting values and ideas on what the government should and shouldn't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 JMJ 1/2 - St. Basil the Great A government can lose legitimacy by committing huge human rights abuses, losing the support of the people, or massive crimes in general. For instance, Slobidan Milosevic lost legitimacy in Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein lost legitimacy in Iraq, &c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I poswted this on another thread but the following are requirments which I propose contend are essential for a government to be legitament-- they are an amalgamation of those requirements set forth by the Church at various times, but they are not something I just came up with. QUOTE We do when we're waging a just war. Not when that Just War is revolutionary in nature. QUOTE Does this still happen today? I believe that Bush has tried to cut at least much of the funding. Bush has cut the direct funding but not the indirect funding, public hospitals are still required to offer abortion services. QUOTE I'm looking at the big picture. How many people would end up in this war? Most of the US. Probably Canada, too. How many will die? Too many. Plus, there are other ways, as I'll mention again in a minute No really your not, the big picture is the one that takes into account Justice for the entire world, not just those who happen to be born who happen to be in our little corner of it. but leets take a worst case senerio and say that the US and Canada where both embroiled in a long bloody civil war the realistic fatalities in such a war would be very unlikely to go above 2 or 3 million and that is a long and bloody war, or in other words less than or equal to, the amount of babies aborted in 2 years. QUOTE Why don't we do other things than war? We have they have been and still are only marginally effective, or not effective at all. QUOTE Yes, but what was the percentage of the entire population at the time? about 1.9 percent, comparatively we murder about .6 percent of our population every year through abortion, and we have been doing so for 30 years. QUOTE So because we haven't done all we can now, we should resort to violence right away? That is as Ithcus likes to say, begging the question. Your question assumes that we have not done all that can be done, and further assumes that 32 years is right away. That sir is a logical fallascy of the most basic order, it is exactly what is being debated here. QUOTE I would like to hear an example of a legitimate government from you. In order to be legitimate a government must conform to the Divine will, in that it cannot A. legislate acts which are in direct contradiction to the well being of it's subjects B legislate acts which seperate the Church from the state C legislate acts which are in direct contradiction with the Reveled truths of God and promote or codify heresy D deny that all authority comes from God and try to justify its use of Power as coming from "the people" or from a book or anything else. E make war on God, His Holy Name, His Honor, or His Chrurch F. Not legislate acts which are outside the Authority of the State, or legislate acts arbitrarly G be ruled by an excommunicate On the contrary a legit government must A defend the well being of all of its subjects without prejudice B Submit to the Church, in matters over which the Church has dominion C Accept that as all authority comes from God the use of Power by the State must be limited to those things which are within the States rights, ie. the State must accept its limitations D defend the Holy Name of God, His Honor, and His Church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 [quote]A government can lose legitimacy by committing huge human rights abuses, losing the support of the people, or massive crimes in general. For instance, Slobidan Milosevic lost legitimacy in Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein lost legitimacy in Iraq, &c. [/quote] One cannot lose legitamacy for anyreason as silly as losing the support of the people, the masses are fickel and frankly stupid, King Louis XVI was the legitemate ruler of France even if all the people in France didn't support him. He had not violated any of the above principals of legitimate government, He was a Faithful Catholic pius in his faith and a Good king who loved his people. They however where duped by evil men, that did not make him suddenly cease to be legit, it made them poor subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conservativecatholic Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jan 2 2005, 02:02 PM'] One cannot lose legitamacy for anyreason as silly as losing the support of the people, the masses are fickel and frankly stupid, King Louis XVI was the legitemate ruler of France even if all the people in France didn't support him. He had not violated any of the above principals of legitimate government, He was a Faithful Catholic pius in his faith and a Good king who loved his people. They however where duped by evil men, that did not make him suddenly cease to be legit, it made them poor subjects. [/quote] I agree. Louis XVI was absolutely legit; however, his wife Marie Antoinette caused the unceasing disatisfaction among those in the Third Estate. I'm sure you're a big fan of good ol' Thomas Hobbes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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