Self-mortification

[cmotherofpirl]

Self-denial is mortification.

[mulls]

show me proof that Paul was talking about physically pummeling and subduing his own body, as it relates to mortification.

christians suffer enough persecution in their normal lives. i don't see how putting a rock in my shoe will make me more spiritual.

how would you explain this act to a non-believer? is this how you would want to represent Jesus?

[Cure of Ars]

show me proof that Paul was talking about physically pummeling and subduing his own body, as it relates to mortification.

christians suffer enough persecution in their normal lives. i don't see how putting a rock in my shoe will make me more spiritual.

how would you explain this act to a non-believer? is this how you would want to represent Jesus?

First explain how not eating can make someone more spiritual.

[hyperdulia again]

*pinches self hard*

[Donna]

Hi, Mulls.

Thanks for bringing this up. It's freaked me out, too.

CMom hit a good nail on it a while back.

That giving up licit things makes us more able to give up illicit (sinful) things.

But I wonder why you think St. Paul wasn't talking literally as cited by (my pal!) Katholikos?

Aren't Protestants the ones who are supposed to take the Bible literally? :blink:

[Katholikos]

show me proof that Paul was talking about physically pummeling and subduing his own body, as it relates to mortification.

christians suffer enough persecution in their normal lives. i don't see how putting a rock in my shoe will make me more spiritual.

how would you explain this act to a non-believer? is this how you would want to represent Jesus?

"So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh --for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live." How would one "put to death the deeds of the body" except through mortification? St. Paul had a great deal to say about redemptive suffering and its value in his writings. Read the Bible thematically for a better understanding.

Here's another example: "...we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may be glorified with him." Since it is unlikely that we will be crucified, how else shall we "suffer with him" except through mortification?

Can anything the Bible says be "proven"? What level of "proof" would satisfy you if the plain words of Scripture and the teaching of the Church founded by Christ will not?

Can you "prove" that members of your denomination are actually "speaking in tongues" instead of just making nonsense syllables? How can you "prove" that the sounds are not just an imitation of the sounds Miss Ozman made, who in January 1901 said she had received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and claimed to be "speaking in tongues," the first person in modern history to do so? Can you "prove" that this is the way St. Paul sounded when he "spoke in tongues"?

This is a typical Protestant response: "I don't like what St. Paul wrote, so I will twist his words (2 Peter 3:15 RSV) to make them more agreeable to me."

Peace be to you and to all,

Katholikos

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[Theologian in Training]

Hmmm...I wrote something on this a while back....let me see if I can't find it.

[Theologian in Training]

Ok, I found it. Keep in mind that this is a direct response to a thread that Speechless (Good Friday) posted a while back, the name which eludes me at the moment. Also, this was, as you can read from the post, written during the Easter Season. It is also a bit long, for which I apologize.

God Bless

This thread was inspired by Speeches thread with regard to the priests shortage. During the course of my response there was something that kept inserting itself, which today is never popular: mortification.

Remember how all religious before Vatican II...priests and consecrated...used to take the discipline? Now it is seen as masochistic, damaging to one's self-esteem, painful. Did Christ say, no, not the cross, I prefer a pillow, no not nails, I prefer string, no not whips, I prefer feathers, no not thorns, I prefer fabric?

Yet we wonder why our passions are out of control, our minds are innundated with filth, and our relationships are stale, cold, superficial, and weak. How can they not be? If we don't control ourselves, then we put ourselves in control of us. Our reason is then subject to passions, desires, etc., and our reason is formed by not what is inherently wrong, but left to itself, has to capability of destroying us.

I realize we are in the midst of Easter and should be celebrating the Resurrection of Christ, but how many of you mortify yourselves? I am not asking how many beat themselves with a rod, or whip themselves until they bleed, no, I am asking how many of you have actually denied something, though not inherently wrong, incredibly enjoyable to you? How many of you have given yourself up for the sake of another, or offered something for a conversion, or something another person needs (not desires)?

The reason mortification is no longer popular is because we have all formed this image that it is somehow taboo, somehow dirty, somehow just not right. I think, however, the problem with that is that we have set up for ourselves a false image of what mortification actually is. For example, have you ever felt the urge to speak ill of someone, or better yet, felt the urge say something downright rude, but held your tongue? Isn't that mortification? Some may say, no, that is not, that is good manners, it is charity, it is kindness. inDouche, but isn't mortification the acceptance that we are broken and wounded people and not all saints? Doesn't it mean that we accept ourselves, both the good and the bad, and realize that in denying ourseleves even something as small as that we are learning to subject what is natural to the supernatural?

St. Josemaria Escriva (whom I would recommend to everyone) says "That joke, that witty remark held on the tip of your tongue; the cheerful smile for those who annoy you; that silence when you're unjustly accused; your friendly conversation with people whom you find boring and tactless; the daily effort to overlook one irritating detail or another in the persons who live with you... this, with perseverance, is inDouche solid interior mortification." Never thought of it like that, have we? It may even sound mean to some extent, until we realize that we are no better than this Saint, that we too have been around people that are boring and tactless, and are no better than him in trying to say that that person is not that way to us, no matter which way we want to pretend.

Mortification isn't meant to harm us, it is meant to form us. However, it is completely pointless if it merely remains on the superficial level. For why do we do anything to deny ourselves if not to draw us closer to God? God is the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega. Therefore, all arrows should be pointing up.

When we mortify ourselves it is a means of controlling that which comes natural to us. In order to recognize this we have to realize that we are sense aware men and women, in other words, a smell, look, sound, etc., may have an effect on us one way or the other. Now this, it seems, is where mortification has been greatly misinterpreted. We fall into the trap of believing that we are disembodied subjects and can't stand what the body does to us, never realizing that the body is merely doing what it was ordered to do, and it is our responsibility to both work with it while also teaching it to obey. In other words, as St. Josemaria Escriva says, "One has to give the body a little less than its due. Otherwise it turns traitor." This, of course, does not mean that its intent is mutiny, rather, it means that we have a responsibility for what goes in and comes out of that same body.

Think about it, when we fast, we are hungry, so what do we do? Do we eat? Usually, we don't, instead we pray. We feed the soul what the body lacks. Does this mean that we are being mean to our bodies and abusing our temples? No, rather it means that we are recognizing that we are more than our bodies.

So when we mortify ourselves, in essence, we are learning self-control, and once we have self-control, then it easier to pray. As Escriva has said, "Mortification is the drawbridge that enables us to enter the castle of prayer." This is true, for we do not pray well when we are troubled, whether interiorly or externally.

Finally, mortification teaches us not only self-control, but self-denial. Christ has said to deny yourselves, take up your cross, and follow Him. Therefore, taking up the crosses of mortifications is also a denial of your very self. For, when we deny ourselves we allow Christ to further dwell within us. In other words, we can say definitively, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives within me."

So mortification is not merely a means of beating oneself, rather, it is the means to sanctification.

[Katholikos]

*pinches self hard*

chuckle chuckle :lol:

[Katholikos]

Theo, it was just as good the second time around! This is the post that inspired me to spend two months' of the intense Arizona summer without air conditioning this year. It was a wonderful experience. I lasted until temperatures hit 110. I'm going to try it this winter also. Thank you, Theo, and Saint José.

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos

[Theologian in Training]

Theo, it was just as good the second time around!  This is the post that inspired me to spend two months' of the intense Arizona summer without air conditioning this year.  It was a wonderful experience.  I lasted until temperatures hit 110.  I'm going to try it this winter also.  Thank you, Theo, and Saint José.

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos

Wow...that is quite humbling. All I was doing was trying to be responsive to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and yet you never know how far your own instrumentality can be used.

God Bless

[mulls]

"That joke, that witty remark held on the tip of your tongue; the cheerful smile for those who annoy you; that silence when you're unjustly accused; your friendly conversation with people whom you find boring and tactless; the daily effort to overlook one irritating detail or another in the persons who live with you... this, with perseverance, is inDouche solid interior mortification."

this is very nice. seems like interior mortification is A-OK. but it's also simply the way God asks us to treat each other all of the time, with love.

if this is called interior mortification, i suppose my questions more concern exterior (physical) mortification.

[Theologian in Training]

When we mortify ourselves it is a means of controlling that which comes natural to us. In order to recognize this we have to realize that we are sense aware men and women, in other words, a smell, look, sound, etc., may have an effect on us one way or the other. Now this, it seems, is where mortification has been greatly misinterpreted. We fall into the trap of believing that we are disembodied subjects and can't stand what the body does to us, never realizing that the body is merely doing what it was ordered to do, and it is our responsibility to both work with it while also teaching it to obey. In other words, as St. Josemaria Escriva says, "One has to give the body a little less than its due. Otherwise it turns traitor." This, of course, does not mean that its intent is mutiny, rather, it means that we have a responsibility for what goes in and comes out of that same body.

Think about it, when we fast, we are hungry, so what do we do? Do we eat? Usually, we don't, instead we pray. We feed the soul what the body lacks. Does this mean that we are being mean to our bodies and abusing our temples? No, rather it means that we are recognizing that we are more than our bodies.

So when we mortify ourselves, in essence, we are learning self-control, and once we have self-control, then it easier to pray. As Escriva has said, "Mortification is the drawbridge that enables us to enter the castle of prayer." This is true, for we do not pray well when we are troubled, whether interiorly or externally.

Read this part again. It deals with your question specifically.

To clarify though, if you are to fast, you are not doing it for the benefits of your body, but rather, for the benefits of your soul. When you fast, you grow hungry, when you deny your body the food it needs, you are teaching it self-control and teaching yourself self-mastery. Remember, the body is functioning as a body should: it responds to natural stimuli because that is what the body is ordered for. However, your body is not alone, because a soul is integrated into that body. In other words, we are not souless, bodiless human beings, but body and soul. Therefore, it is important to take care of both so the two can work in harmony.

Think about it, the less you pray, the more you are focused on your body. Now, I am not just talking about sexual temptations and the like, but your desires are more worldly, your palate is more refined, and eventually you stop at nothing for comfort, decadence, and luxury.

When you deprive your body of its essential needs, it learns to be obedient, and finds that something your refined self may scoff at, to be more pleasing to the palate. An example of this is the practice of certain Saints who would put ashes in their food to dull the succulent taste of their food, so as to not "forget God" by filling themselves with all sorts of delicacies. Now, I am not advocating putting ashes in your food, but, as some priests have recommended, something like not taking dessert, bearing the elements (hot or cold, as Katholicos did), or another form of denial are all means of mortification.

Its purpose is simple: you teach yourself mastery of your self, while also teaching your body to not expect fine dining, comfort, and luxury all the time.

Padre Pio slept on a rock citing that since Jesus had no place to rest His head nor should he have a place as well. Pio would also deprive himself of sleep and food, and any comfort he did seek was squelched by the burning and sharp pains in his hands and feet, as a result of his stigmata.

Again, Escriva says is better than anyone else in this situation:

To defend his purity, Saint Francis of Assisi rolled in the snow, Saint Benedict threw himself into a thorn bush, Saint Bernard plunged into an icy pond... You..., what have you done?

Hope that helps

God Bless

Edited October 20, 2003 by Theologian in Training

[M.SIGGA]

Blessed Mother Theresa was a great example of someone who truly mortified herself for the sake of Christ. She gave her entire self for the service of the poor and was inflicted numerous times with sores and diseases (she appatently caught many different strains of malaria while in India), and exhaustion from housing so many lepers and orphans all day everyday. This is the Christian mortification implied in the Bible. God provides us with limbs and bodies so we can do His will, not beat them up.

It doesn't matter if st. francis jumped into a thorn bush or st benedict jumped into a pond once or twice - that was their personal way of cutting sin out of their lives and dealing with temptations. When I get really angry at my friends, girlfriend, co-workers, family. etc... I usually take a drive until I calm my nerves to avoid carrying my anger on my shoulder - it works for me but that doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone else too.