Irish National Sovereignty

[Noel's angel]

oh! i wasnt talking about you! no, i think u made some good arguments. at least in England, u know a fair bit about whats going on over here

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jan 8 2005, 04:15 PM'] oh! i wasnt talking about you! no, i think u made some good arguments. at least in England, u know a fair bit about whats going on over here [/quote]


I'm a Christie, so you can guess which county i'm from

[Noel's angel]

lol, did we have a conversation about the Christies once? i think we did. they own a shop or something u said

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jan 8 2005, 04:20 PM'] lol, did we have a conversation about the Christies once? i think we did. they own a shop or something u said [/quote]
Nah, that was the Duffin's from Ballymoney. She was a sweet girl

Edited January 8, 2005 by RandomProddy

[Noel's angel]

i dont recall hearing about them, woops, kinda getting off topic here

[RandomProddy]

Hehe, true. I think we should leave this one alone, because obviously Phatmasser777 and the rest know more about the current situation than we do

[Noel's angel]

lol, yeah. i mean, i was just born here and have lived here all my life, i know nothing about my own country

[Guest Aluigi]

my mention of the Irish Constitution was not about any claim to the entire teritory, actually, rather about the claim to national sovereignty. that's one of it's biggest themes, the fact that Ireland now has sovereignty over itself. I am concerned it may be giving that up to the E.U.

it is my understanding that Sinn Fein is having some political success much to the shegrin of the protestants. i believe a united Ireland can happen through peaceful means, and it can happen in our lifetime.

i wouldn't call the IRA "innocent" but i also would not call most of their actions unjustified. violence is sometimes necessary, and if ever there were a just war it was a just war to fight against Catholic opression. they're one of those groups that always tries to limit their victims anyway, and at least right now I know that both sides don't arbitrarily kill. there are certain people in danger and certain people not. my dad was in the middle of a unionist bar and asked loudly "do you know what time Sunday Mass is tomarrow?". he wasn't one of the people in danger, there's a code basically adhered to by both groups.

anyway, i think peaceful means can be used to bring the six counties back, that Sinn Fein is going to win politically within our lifetime and work to bring the country back together. i just pray they don't exchange one foreign rule of london for another foreign rule in brussels.

i think it's dispicable for Ireland to disgrace its ancestors who fought so hard for a free sovereign Ireland by giving up it's power to the E.U. or by abandoning a process by which Northern Ireland would become a part of Ireland. not necessarily condoning violent means (though they can be justified, even the IRA has begun on the road to peaceful means) but the cause cannot be abandoned.

anyway, I know I don't live there, but I've been there numerous times (first machine gun i ever saw i saw when i was like 8 years old in Northern Ireland) and my dad has very close ties to it. Can I not have an opinion? I simply love Ireland and want what is best for it, and the way the E.U. is going I don't think THAT is best for it, and I never thought the division was best for it. The violence came out of the british persecution of Catholics. persecution of Catholics is way down and the violence too is way down. the IRA and DUP still kill each other every once in a while, but really the police have less power than those two groups anyway, they basically are the police. i support the peaceful means for the reunification of Ireland, but I do not support abandoning the cause for the reunification.

[Guest Aluigi]

btw, i do not claim to know as much or more than anyone that lives in Ireland and do appreciate your input.

Funny story: my aunt's a sister, she's also a bit naive. Anyway, she was in the Republic when she heard the news about the Good Friday Agreement, and she was going to the North and then would be going home in a few days. She was stopped at a British checkpoint and she asked them "what are you doing here? i thought you guys left!" lol, she apparently misunderstood the Good Friday Agreement. anyway, she was just so naive that they didn't get mad. lol.

[Noel's angel]

Aluigi, you are one of the few people who knows something about what you are talking about and you do have intersting things to say

[Noel's angel]

[quote]always tries to limit their victims anyway[/quote]

no, they dont. what about the Omagh bomb? they told the people it was at one end of the main street, so as they would all run to the other end where the bomb actually was.

I cant see Sinn Fein achieving a United Ireland, the DUP is still the largest perty and I cant see many Unionists wanting to give up on their cause.

[quote]Can I not have an opinion?[/quote]

yes, i have NO problem with your posts

[quote]the IRA and DUP still kill each other every once in a while[/quote]

the DUP are a political party who aren't officially affiliated to any paramilitary organisation, it is the UVF etc. who are the terrorists.

i think its great that you have an interest and some knowledge of what you are talking about, but I think that maybe a lot of people don't realise that the IRA aren't these great heros. In fact, Sinn Fein's leader Gerry Adams once said that he could envisage a time when the IRA would no longer exist. Now, if the Sinn Fein leader says that, think of how the majority of ordinary people in Northern Ireland feel about the IRA.

Edited January 8, 2005 by Noel's angel

[Guest Aluigi]

the real heroes are from a century ago. the fenian men and such.

the IRA started as a legitimate cause because there was persecution. most of the time they do warn people where it will be. are you sure it wasn't a mistake when they told it would be at the wrong spot? although, it was done by the "real" IRA which is the broken off faction that simply wants to continue the bloodshed. I sympathize with the original IRA, the one that is now in ceasefire.

sorry, i knew i would mix up one of those abreviations when i said DUP i meant UVF


anyway, I share Gerry Adams sentiments, but don't interpret them exactly the way you do. that there would no longer be a need for an IRA, that the cause would be achieved. no one really wants there to have to be an IRA, if Sinn Fein could bring about a united Ireland it would be awesome. they are starting to have some big success, i know unionists will never give up their cause, but i hope and pray that we won't give up our cause either. within 10 or 20 years it is not unfeasable that Sinn Fein could succeed.

check out the 2001 election results compared to the 1997 ones, i think Sinn Fein is gaining power and it is not that unfeasable
[img]http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/historical/election_1997_2001.gif[/img]

[url="http://www.irelandstory.com"]http://www.irelandstory.com[/url]

They basically just took the west. The DUP got stronger too, but it's polarizing. Within 10 or 20 years I bet it's almost 2 party, DUP vs. Sinn Fein. Maybe 30 or 40 years if we're lucky (and the Irish are always lucky lol) Sinn Fein can take charge.

Edited January 8, 2005 by Aluigi

[Noel's angel]

yes, but, Sinn Feins unwillingness for the IRA decommissioning will probably lose them votes. There are only so many people who will vote for Sinn Fein. They'd have to win most of the votes from the SDLAP and some from Unionist parties to win, and that is unlikely to happen.

BTW, the Omagh bomb thing wasnt a mistake

[Guest Aluigi]

the "real" IRA is pretty out there anyway though. i wouldn't think of considering them "heroes"

the original IRA basically always avoids as much unnecsary bloodshed as possible, they're Catholics and that's basic just-war doctrine. even the real IRA was doing that, until they failed so many times because every time they outright warned where the bomb would be they got caught. that's why that time they sent a misleading wraning, and i 100% disagree with what they did there. the IRA formed to counter the Catholic persecution, and in that sense they were heroes. And they are at a ceasefire illustrating an even more courageous virtue that they know when to stop the fight (the real-IRA doesn't get that).

i hope for a time when the IRA is no longer necessary. I am not 100% convinced that it currently is at that point, but I agree with the ceasefire because the violence is no longer necessary.

[Guest Aluigi]

anyway, the Omagh bomb- horrible tragedy. the Real IRA was gravely wrong for doing it. they said it was gonna be at the courthouse, it was 500 yards from the courthouse.
[quote]    *

      Received by Ulster Television at 14:30
      "There's a bomb, courthouse, Omagh, main street, 500 pounds, explosion 30 minutes."
    *

      Received by the Coleraine office of the 'Samaritans' charity, 14:32
      "Am I through to Omagh? This is a bomb warning. It's going to go off in 30 minutes." [followed possibly by a further piece of information specifying 200 yards from the courthouse].
    *

      Received by Ulster Television at 14:35
      "Bomb, Omagh town, 15 minutes."
[/quote]

It was vague and misleading because when they did accurate ones, they had before, they got diffused. It was wrong of them, they knew it would cause a much much greater risk to bystanders.

i can't say whether they intended that or not, but the police assumed they did because every time they warned before the bomb was diffused.
[quote] "I can come to no other conclusion in that this was absolutely deliberate, we've had success in the past either through intercepting these vehicles before they arrive at their intended destination, or reaching them very soon after they have arrived so that we've been able to disrupt them, and I have no doubt that these people decided to give deliberately vague and misleading warnings to prevent us disrupting the explosive devices. I can come to no conclusion other than that these people intended the bloody murder that resulted from their actions".  - Ronnie Flanaghan, Police [/quote]

But, that's the Omagh bomb. sad sad incident, i can only hope and pray that those who were conscience that the plan would be so devestating repented

this is a good collection of info about it as well as a tribute to all the victims :
[url="http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/omagh/main.html"]http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/irelan...omagh/main.html[/url]
from irishstory.com

we are in agreement regarding the Omagh bomb being a horrible act, and that the Real IRA is pretty messed up.

the Provisional IRA, however, i am still not opposed to. They are at ceasefire and have always been one of the most rational "terrorist" groups i've ever known. they always attempt to keep their casualties down and their targets not be bystanders.

i kinda wish the unionists would just move to england, lol, it'd make it easier. i don't think britain even wants northern ireland anymore, too much trouble with the IRA and the UVF and such. i really really hope Sinn Fein can pull off it's goal, and it isn't impossible. They got the west! just get some more of the east and such. maybe I'll move there and help the cause (politically)