Jesus vs. Mary and the Saints

[Apotheoun]

I posted this in another thread, but it fits well here:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date=' Dec 25 2004, 12:01 PM']The following text, taken from Fr. Casimir Kucharek's book [u]The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom[/u], touches upon the Eastern Catholic doctrine of sacred icons:

[quote name='The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom' date='pages 228-230']
          [. . .]
          There is a fundamental difference between Byzantines and Westerners in the interpretation of sacred images.  The latter merely regard them as representations of one whose presence is elsewhere, in heaven.  For the Byzantine Christian, the icon is a veritable theophany, a dynamic manifestation of divine energy at work on earth.  The person represented is in some spiritual way actually present in the icon.  From this presence flow streams of grace upon the sinful world, purifying and sanctifying it.
          How [does one] explain this mysterious presence in the icon?  To define this presence would be as difficult as explaining the [i]Shekinah[/i] or the mysterious presence of Christ amid two or three gathered together in His name (Matt. 18:20).  Yet such a presence was no less true.  The mystical teaching concerning icons stems from the master idea of all Eastern typology, the idea of the Church building as "Heaven on earth."  Gregory of Nyssa was probably the first to set out the main lines of such teaching.  His doctrine was taken up and developed by others.  The author of the eighth-century [i]Rerum Ecclesiasticarum Contemplatio[/i], for example, expresses it boldly:  "The heaven wherein the Triune God lives and moves on earth is the Christian holy place, the Church.  . . ."  The presence of heaven passed easily from the Church to the icon.
          The West never understood the iconoclastic controversy.  It did not see the veneration of icons as a dogmatic matter but simply as a disciplinary matter.  The Byzantine East, on the other hand, saw clearly in the decision of the seventh general council a contribution toward a better understanding of the mystery of the Incarnation or, more precisely, the mystery of God's communication of Himself to the world and to man in particular.  That is why iconography was always such a serious science.  It was never merely an art form.  To be worthy of the task, the ancient icon painters prayed and fasted for days before taking up their brush – only then could they communicate the Divine through their image-making.  Because icons represent human forms that have been "regenerated into eternity," holy bodies of persons transformed, transfigured by grace in prayer, iconographers attempted to convey theological meanings through symbolical colors and forms.  Saints, for example, are represented facing forward so that their entire face is showing, for a spiritual man cannot be incomplete, with one eye only.  "A soul that has been illuminated by divine glory," teaches Macarius the Great, "becomes all light and all face. . . and has no part with that which is behind but stands altogether facing forward."
          [. . .][/quote][/quote]
Taken from: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25889&view=findpost&p=463662"]The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom[/url]

[Apotheoun]

Here is another post that deals with this topic:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 16 2004, 11:59 AM']When the invisible and immaterial God became visible by entering into matter, it became possible to portray sacred realities through icons. In other words, the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ has opened up a dispensation of sacred images, making it possible to depict holy persons in iconographic form, for the icon and its heavenly prototype share a hypostatic relation, and as a consequence, the icon renders present the person depicted. Moreover, the icon contains within it the purifying, sanctifying, and illuminating uncreated divine energies, and can impart those energies to the person who venerates it, for as Photius of Constantinople explained:

". . . from the beginning the divine and infallible proclamation of the Apostolic and Patristic tradition is like a certain living wisdom which dominates matter and, in accordance with its own sacred laws, works it and fashions it and produces a representation and shape, not allowing any element of material disorder or of human curiosity to assert itself in these; but showing and manifesting all its work, it provides us, in a way appropriate to the representation of sacred things, with clear and unadulterated reflection of the prototypes in the holy icons . . . For this reason they are no longer wooden boards . . . or colors bereft of the inherent power and grace which produces form, neither can they be so conceived nor so named; but rather, they are holy and honourable and glorified and venerable. For having come to participate in the energy that comes from above, and in those holy persons, they bear the form and the name and are dedicated, they transport the minds to them and bring us blessings and divine favour from them. They are not indeed named after the material from which the icon is made or after any other property which is incongruous and applies to their opposites. On the contrary it is from those in whom they participate, . . . and whom they serve, and to whom they are dedicated, that they are very rightly known by the true devotees and receive their name." [Photius, [u]Epistulae et Amphilochia[/u]]

For more information on the theology of icons I recommend reading the book [u]Images of the Divine: The Theology of Icons at the Seventh Ecumenical Council[/u] by Ambrosias Giakalis.[/quote]
Taken from: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25401&view=findpost&p=453565"]Reformed Protestants no longer see Images as Idolatrous[/url]

[jc is 4 Jesus Christ]

we aren't praying "to" Mary... itz just that we are asking her to pray for us :angel: :jesus:

[jc is 4 Jesus Christ]

itz just like asking our mom or our best friend to pray for us if we're having issues or sumthing....

[Apotheoun]

Prayer can involve the worship of adoration, which is given only to God, or it can involve veneration, which is given to the saints. It can also be a simple request for aid, involving no worship [i]per se[/i], whether made to God or man.

That being said, I do pray [i]to[/i] Mary, and I also venerate her as the Holy Theotokos. My prayers to her, and my veneration of her, is based on the fact that she has been divinized by God's grace, and now sits in heaven as our Mother and Queen.

God bless,
Todd

[qfnol31]

Poor little 13-year-olds posting in this thread.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 30 2004, 01:40 PM'] Poor little 13-year-olds posting in this thread.  [/quote]
Heck, I'm just happy when a thirteen year old thinks about things like this.

[qfnol31]

Me too!

[Benedict]

Okay.

Me too.

[jc is 4 Jesus Christ]

hey! r u callin me 13?!?!?!?!?! :angry:

[M.SIGGA]

Apotheoun and anyone else,

I know someone with an issue who could use some advice. What should someone do if they really feel devotion to Mary is taking away from their concentration on Christ and the Bible, to the point where it's interfering with their concentration at Mass, their prayer life, and also there is fear of commiting idolatry.

[PolyCarp of Smyrna]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Dec 30 2004, 10:07 PM'] Apotheoun and anyone else,

I know someone with an issue who could use some advice. What should someone do if they really feel devotion to Mary is taking away from their concentration on Christ and the Bible, to the point where it's interfering with their concentration at Mass, their prayer life, and also there is fear of commiting idolatry. [/quote]


I would recommend examining what the focus of your devotion to Mary finds its premise. This is to say that proper Marian devotion CAN NEVER become idolatrous because the whole point of Mary is to lead us to Christ. I find it very interesting that folks are so easily subject to wanting to establish the “either/or” (non contradictory) conflict. Its as if they are trying to say “EITHER you focus on Mary OR Jesus”. This is an unfortunate misunderstanding of the proper element of devotion. Mary has always pointed to Jesus just as we are all to do the same. Once one begins imbibing in the simplification of the faith via the Either/Or conflict, then it has a snow ball effect which often results in a most unfortunate and unhappy resolve. Right now it is pitting Mary against Jesus and the Bible. Next it will be the Bible against Jesus, and then the Church against the Bible. This is NOT a situation one need to embrace for the ultimate result is always a “choosing” of specific aspects of the faith, which is called “Heresy”


Pax Christi,

Thom

[cmotherofpirl]

Mary can only lead you to Jesus, she points the way and leads by example.
If there is a problem with balance, one should reexamine the role living women play in their life.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Dec 30 2004, 08:07 PM'] Apotheoun and anyone else,

I know someone with an issue who could use some advice. What should someone do if they really feel devotion to Mary is taking away from their concentration on Christ and the Bible, to the point where it's interfering with their concentration at Mass, their prayer life, and also there is fear of commiting idolatry. [/quote]
Your friend needs to recognize the integral nature of the doctrine of the communion of saints, and how the veneration of the saints naturally flows from God's gift of communion. Both of these doctrines are founded upon the dogma of the incarnation; for when a man honors the saints, he honors the One who made the saints holy. It must never be forgotten that God dwells within the saints through the power of His uncreated energy, and so to honor them can never detract from the honor to be given to God.

A true and living devotion to the saints always leads to the adoration of God, for He is the cause of all holiness. The saints as reflections of Christ's glory are true icons of the Lord; in other words, they are revelations of the eternal Logos at particular times in the life of the Church. All of this is founded upon the dogma of the incarnation of the Logos and His founding of the Church, for the Church herself is quite simply the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout time, and as a consequence, the saints are true manifestations of Christ's presence in the life of the Church at particular moments in history. The veneration of the saints follows naturally from the doctrine of the incarnation and the foundation of the Church by Christ; thus the veneration of the saints can never harm a man's spiritual life, for such a man recognizes and adores the cause of the holiness of the saints, i.e., God Himself. The various truths of the faith interpenetrate each other, and so to reject one, is to reject them all.

God bless,
Todd

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 31 2004, 01:24 PM'] A true and living devotion to the saints always leads to the adoration of God, for He is the cause of all holiness. [/quote]
Thanks people. So his devotion must not be proper. How does someone go about correcting this?

[quote]The various truths of the faith interpenetrate each other, and so to reject one, is to reject them all.[/quote]
If it so happens that one truth is being rejected, and therefore all, then is my friend technically not Catholic? I still think he should go to Mass, but should he stop taking communion?

This is a personal question; must Catholics agree with every type of devotion and veneration? I'm specifically refering to an instance where female dancers with ribbons were running around a statue, bowing down, shaking, etc. If I was a Protestant I would have thought this to be pagan because it resembled something pagans would do in front of an idol or a fetish. I wasn't the only person who was uncomfortable. I'm an ethnic Catholic and I understand the importance of preserving culture and heritage, but are there any rules on when a devotion or veneration of saints or the BVM can go too far and become unhealthy, or is it all up to the individual?