geetarplayer Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 My friend is having trouble with this one... he's becoming a Phishy Catholic... So, Catholics get this bad rap for praying "to" Mary and the saints "instead of" praying to Jesus or even God. Firstly, why do so many people insist on praying [i]to[/i] Mary and the saints and not [i]with[/i] them? Secondly, how do we know when devotions become unnecessary, unhealthy distractions? -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote name='geetarplayer' date='Dec 30 2004, 09:28 AM'] My friend is having trouble with this one... he's becoming a Phishy Catholic... So, Catholics get this bad rap for praying "to" Mary and the saints "instead of" praying to Jesus or even God. Firstly, why do so many people insist on praying [i]to[/i] Mary and the saints and not [i]with[/i] them? Secondly, how do we know when devotions become unnecessary, unhealthy distractions? -Mark [/quote] First, Catholics do not pray to Mary and the saints instead of praying to Jesus; moreover, by praying to the saints one honors Jesus who made them saints in the first place. Afterall, Jesus is the source of all holiness and so praying to the saints and venerating them involves honoring Christ. Second, devotion can never become unhealthy or unnecessary, because by venerating the saints one honors the holiness of God present within them. The whole point of the incarnation of God is to make men holy, i.e., it is meant to elevate humanity into the uncreated life and glory of God. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madonna Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote]Firstly, why do so many people insist on praying to Mary and the saints and not with them?[/quote] I don't think many people really do. I think there are a select few that don't know better. [quote]Secondly, how do we know when devotions become unnecessary, unhealthy distractions?[/quote] I think devotions are a lot like relationships. Just as infatuation can be a distraction in an earthly relationship, so superstition is a distraction in a spiritual one. Relationships with Mary and the saints aren't vital, per se. But they produce so many fruits. I would like to say that, since building a relationship with our Lady, my prayer life has been more meaningful and real. The Angelus and the simple prayer to ask Mary to help me imitate her motherhood is the best way possible that I could ever prepare myself to be the best wife and mother I can be. I feel so blessed to be able to have her example. I genuinely love Our Lady. I respect her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote name='Madonna' date='Dec 30 2004, 09:48 AM'] Relationships with Mary and the saints aren't vital, per se. But they produce so many fruits. [/quote] As a Byzantine Catholic I disagree with this comment. Devotion to the saints, who have been made holy by being assimilated ([i]omoiosis[/i]) to Christ, is not a dispensable practice, for true devotion to the saints honors God. In other words, when one fails to venerate those who have been made holy, one fails to honor the source of that holiness, i.e., God Himself. The Eastern liturgy venerates Mary and the saints constantly, for it recognizes that God is present within them, and that by honoring them, one honors God. The living of the Christian faith is a holistic experience, and so one cannot hold that certain elements, no matter how unimportant they may appear to be to some people, are dispensable. God bless, Todd "Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior save us." Taken from the 1st Antiphon of Byzantine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madonna Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I think that is a great point. I added "per se" after my statement, becauseI was trying to get across that one can worship God without going through the saints first; veneration of saints and Mary are tools for getting closer to God and participating in the Mystical Body of Christ. However, I expressed myself poorly. Thanks for correcting me so there won't be any confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote name='Madonna' date='Dec 30 2004, 10:03 AM'] I think that is a great point. I added "per se" after my statement, becauseI was trying to get across that one can worship God without going through the saints first; veneration of saints and Mary are tools for getting closer to God and participating in the Mystical Body of Christ. However, I expressed myself poorly. Thanks for correcting me so there won't be any confusion. [/quote] I still think there is a fundamental disagreement between us on this topic, and perhaps it is rooted in the different theological traditions of East and West. For a Byzantine Catholic the whole idea that the veneration of the saints is a dispensable practice fails to recognize the power of God's uncreated energy present within them. The veneration of the saints, or of icons, etc., is never a tool or a means to an end, it is an end in itself, for it is the recognition of God's holiness, which has been made manifest in the lives of those who have been assimilated ([i]omoiosis[/i]) to Christ through His Incarnation and Paschal Mystery. Sadly, at the present time there is a tendency in the West to rationalize the faith, and along with this dangerous rationalist tendency is another alarming trend toward reductionism, i.e., the attempt to reduce the faith to certain key truths. Both of these trends ultimately lead to a distortion of the concept of the hierarchy of truths, because they promote the false view that some truths of the faith are dispensable. In fact, the hierarchy of truths concerns the interrelationship that exists between the various mysteries of the faith, and therefore it does not mean that some truths are dispensable, while others are not. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madonna Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I hope I did not lead you to believe that I think the veneration of saints and Mary is dispensable. I think it is possible to have some sort of relationship with God without the veneration of saints or Mary. I do not think there is fullness in a relationship without it though. I would never tell a non-Catholic Christian that they have no relationship with God because they do not venerate Mary and the saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote name='Madonna' date='Dec 30 2004, 10:37 AM'] I hope I did not lead you to believe that I think the veneration of saints and Mary is dispensable. I think it is possible to have some sort of relationship with God without the veneration of saints or Mary. I do not think there is fullness in a relationship without it though. I would never tell a non-Catholic Christian that they have no relationship with God because they do not venerate Mary and the saints. [/quote] I do understand your position, but I hold that one must be in communion with the saints; in other words, one must venerate the Holy Theotokos and the saints, because God's energy is present within them, and to ignore them is an affront to God Himself. As a Byzantine Catholic I venerate the Holy Theotokos in the Divine Liturgy itself, for such veneration is an integral part of the Eucharistic liturgy. Moreover, because of the holistic nature of the faith, I refrain from trying to say that some things are necessary, while other things are not. As far as non-Catholic Christians are concerned. Their relationship with God is defective, because they do not possess the fullness of truth, nor do they possess the degree of communion with God that is possible within the Catholic Church. Furthermore, if a man rejects the veneration of the saints, knowing that it is proper and right to give them veneration, it follows that he condemns himself, for to knowingly reject a truth is to exclude oneself from beatitude. Now if the man in question is invincibly ignorant of this truth of the faith, something only God can know, he will be judged by God accordingly. Invincible ignorance of the truth can lessen a man's culpability for error. The veneration of the saints is an indispensable part of a truly Christian life. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 30 2004, 11:59 AM'] As a Byzantine Catholic I disagree with this comment. Devotion to the saints, who have been made holy by being assimilated ([i]omoiosis[/i]) to Christ, is not a dispensable practice, for true devotion to the saints honors God. In other words, when one fails to venerate those who have been made holy, one fails to honor the source of that holiness, i.e., God Himself. The Eastern liturgy venerates Mary and the saints constantly, for it recognizes that God is present within them, and that by honoring them, one honors God. The living of the Christian faith is a holistic experience, and so one cannot hold that certain elements, no matter how unimportant they may appear to be to some people, are dispensable. God bless, Todd "Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior save us." Taken from the 1st Antiphon of Byzantine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom [/quote] Question -- Aren't things like the Rosary and the Angelus and Novenas to Our Lady and Saints and other prayers of the like, disciplines? And disciplines, unlike doctrines, don't [i]have[/i] to be believed or practiced... right? So, would that say that prayers of devotion to Our Lady and the Saints, being disciplines, aren't neccesary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Dec 30 2004, 10:55 AM'] Question -- Aren't things like the Rosary and the Angelus and Novenas to Our Lady and Saints and other prayers of the like, disciplines? And disciplines, unlike doctrines, don't [i]have[/i] to be believed or practiced... right? So, would that say that devotion to Our Lady and the Saints, being disciplines, aren't neccesary? [/quote] They are not "disciplines," because they are not required by canon law, and in fact many of the things you mentioned are Western, not Eastern, devotions. The specific form of devotion given to the saints is not the important thing; instead, what is important is simply giving them veneration. But I fear that you may have a defective understanding of "disciplines," for Christian discipline, which can develop and change over time, reflects the dogmatic belief of the Church. In other words, it must not be seen as something foreign to the sensibilities of the faith, or as something that is imposed upon the Christian people by force. Nevertheless, in the Eastern Churches many of the things that Westerners would see as devotions are part of the Divine Liturgy itself, and as a consequence, they must be done. The veneration of the Holy Theotokos is an example of this, for no one can attend the divine liturgy without venerating her, because there are prayers in the liturgy itself addressed to her, while she is also extolled for her great power and majesty. The veneration of icons is also an integral part of worship in the Byzantine tradition, and so it cannot be thought of as dispensable. As I said in my previous posts, I will not fall into the error of reductionism, i.e., of holding that some things can be simply done away with. The Latin Church at times has an overly legalistic understanding of discipline and devotion. The various devotions to the saints in the East are not "enforced" by law, as something imposed upon the people; rather, the various devotions reflect the constant faith of the Church and they arise naturally as a gift of faith among the Christian people. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 And with each post, I love the Byzantine Rite more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 In the Byzantine Catholic tradition, the saints, icons, and holy relics, are infused with the uncreated energy of God, and so to see their veneration as unnecessary, is an affront to Almighty God Himself who has made them holy. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I agree. One of my biggest hang-ups in converting from the Baptist faith was the veneration of Mary and the saints. All the Marian doctrines quickly fell into place once I started reading what the Church teaches and now I have a deep devotion to the Holy Theotokos. The only thing that I have any aversion to now is a hesitance to venerate ikons and relics. I know that it is not only okay but a positive good yet I still have some Protestant baggage to unload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 [quote name='Benedict' date='Dec 30 2004, 11:28 AM'] I agree. One of my biggest hang-ups in converting from the Baptist faith was the veneration of Mary and the saints. All the Marian doctrines quickly fell into place once I started reading what the Church teaches and now I have a deep devotion to the Holy Theotokos. The only thing that I have any aversion to now is a hesitance to venerate ikons and relics. I know that it is not only okay but a positive good yet I still have some Protestant baggage to unload. [/quote] The West does not have as detailed a theology of icons as the East. In the Byzantine theological tradition it is believed that icons, which have a hypostatic relation to their heavenly prototypes, have been infused with God's uncreated energy, and so in venerating them, one venerates God while also venerating the saint depicted in the icon. Now because there is a hypostatic relation between the saint and the icon, it follows that the icon is a true manifestation of the person depicted in it. Moreover, because the saint himself has been divinized by the grace of God, the icon is also seen as a true theophany. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Seventh Ecumenical Council held in Nicea: "We define that the holy icons . . . should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred cult objects." Yeah, that seems to be present in a very limited fashion in Nicea. At best, I know it was stated that "the honor accorded an ikon is accorded the holy saint of God depicted therein". I forget where I saw that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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