Phazzan Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I know God created Satan good, and gave him free will, and then Satan chose bad, but why does God allow Satan to wreak havoc in this world? Is it somehow part of His devine plan, that without Satan, without evil we cannot truly love God? Does Satan merely exist to reflect God's eternal goodness, benevolence and perfection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 this is something i found, im not sure if it helps, but ill try, [quote]Although God does not cause evil, He does allow evil to be done by creatures who possess a free will. He created man in His own image free to choose between obedience to his commandments, or disobedience. And since God will not take away that freedom, he will not prevent man from sinning, even though sin is the root source of the ills of this world. So, as we will see, it was man who has brought upon himself the multitude of evils that abound throughout the world. In short, then, while God does not will or cause evil in itself, He does allow it, because in His infinite wisdom and mercy He can cause a greater good to come from it. And for this same reason he does justly inflict punishments. By Father Paul A. Duffner, O.P.[/quote] i hope that helps, even if it is only in a small way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 St. Thomas Aquinas: [quote][u]God:[/u] neither wishes evil to happen nor does he wish evil not to happen, [u]but he wishes:[/u] that he should not wish evil to happen and that he should not wish evil not to happen. [i]—Quaestiones disputatae de malo, 2:1, 5[/i][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Angels don't have free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 6 2005, 12:09 AM'] Angels don't have free will. [/quote] From what I've read in the Summa Theologica about Angels it is believed that Angels do in fact have free will Whether there is free-will in the angels? Objection 1: It would seem that there is no free-will in the angels. For the act of free-will is to choose. But there can be no choice with the angels, because choice is "the desire of something after taking counsel," while counsel is "a kind of inquiry," as stated in Ethic. iii, 3. But the angels' knowledge is not the result of inquiring, for this belongs to the discursiveness of reason. Therefore it appears that there is no free-will in the angels. Objection 2: Further, free-will implies indifference to alternatives. But in the angels on the part of their intellect there is no such indifference; because, as was observed already (Question [58], Article [5]), their intellect is not deceived as to things which are naturally intelligible to them. Therefore neither on the part of their appetitive faculty can there be free-will. Objection 3: Further, the natural endowments of the angels belong to them according to degrees of more or less; because in the higher angels the intellectual nature is more perfect than in the lower. But the free-will does not admit of degrees. Therefore there is no free-will in them. On the contrary, Free-will is part of man's dignity. But the angels' dignity surpasses that of men. Therefore, since free-will is in men, with much more reason is it in the angels. I answer that, Some things there are which act, not from any previous judgment, but, as it were, moved and made to act by others; just as the arrow is directed to the target by the archer. Others act from some kind of judgment; but not from free-will, such as irrational animals; for the sheep flies from the wolf by a kind of judgment whereby it esteems it to be hurtful to itself: such a judgment is not a free one, but implanted by nature. Only an agent endowed with an intellect can act with a judgment which is free, in so far as it apprehends the common note of goodness; from which it can judge this or the other thing to be good. Consequently, wherever there is intellect, there is free-will. It is therefore manifest that just as there is intellect, so is there free-will in the angels, and in a higher degree of perfection than in man. Reply to Objection 1: The Philosopher is speaking of choice, as it is in man. As a man's estimate in speculative matters differs from an angel's in this, that the one needs not to inquire, while the other does so need; so is it in practical matters. Hence there is choice in the angels, yet not with the inquisitive deliberation of counsel, but by the sudden acceptance of truth. Reply to Objection 2: As was observed already (Article [2]), knowledge is effected by the presence of the known within the knower. Now it is a mark of imperfection in anything not to have within it what it should naturally have. Consequently an angel would not be perfect in his nature, if his intellect were not determined to every truth which he can know naturally. But the act of the appetitive faculty comes of this, that the affection is directed to something outside. Yet the perfection of a thing does not come from everything to which it is inclined, but only from something which is higher than it. Therefore it does not argue imperfection in an angel if his will be not determined with regard to things beneath him; but it would argue imperfection in him, with he to be indeterminate to what is above him. Reply to Objection 3: Free-will exists in a nobler manner in the higher angels than it does in the lower, as also does the judgment of the intellect. Yet it is true that liberty, in so far as the removal of compulsion is considered, is not susceptible of greater and less degree; because privations and negations are not lessened nor increased directly of themselves; but only by their cause, or through the addition of some qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 I think angels would have to have free will for Satan to exist... Anyways, you can't have free will without consequences and temptation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 (edited) [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 6 2005, 12:19 AM']I stand corrected.[/quote] Well, I can see where you would get the idea in that they only choose good (or if they are fallen only choose bad). And at one point they all had to make that choice. One of my favorite Icons is the Assent of Arch Angel St. Michael. [img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-3/665037/AssentofMichael.jpg[/img] Oh to answer Chazzan: God does not annihilate Satan in that existence is good. Satan is not the cause of natural disasters, or what philosophers call ontological evil, although he can and does use the for his advantage I am sure. In fact, Because of the Victory of the Cross, Satan has no power over us, for in our weakness God is Strong. Thus God is glorified through Satan's failure. Also, even more humiliating for Satan is the fact that God became man, and a poor and humble Women said yes, where Satan could only say no. Edited January 6, 2005 by Theoketos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 I think the answer to the question is in part the verse "Where there is sin grace abounds". Also the Church at easter says "Oh happy fault" not because sin is good or Adam's sin was good but God allows Satan to work his evil and us to sin for the benefit of his saints that they might love him more. He asks the Pharasee, Simon, Simon, who loves more, the one who has been forgiven much or a little. The answer is obvious. God allows sin so that we will fall more deeply in love with him by his grace. He of course does not cause our sin and would not do so. Therefore he created a creature, satan, whom by his free will fell. This creature prods our sinning, causing us to fall. But if we turn to God, he fills our hearts with love for him such that the state that we are in after our repentence is greater than the one before when we had no need of repentence. Is that understandable? Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 (edited) Augustine defines free will as "the ability to do good". I think this definition makes alot more sense in figuring all of this out. When we are in the bonds of sin we are not really free and need God's grace to choose good. Adam and Eve were free in the garden to do good. Sin, however enslaves the man. If anyone wants to read a good book on this topic there is one by Bruno Webb called "Why does God permit Evil". He draws his insights from Aquinas, Augustine, and the Church documents. It goes in to natural disasters, violence in nature and the like as well. Highly recommended. Blessings Edited January 6, 2005 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Phazzan' date='Dec 30 2004, 10:59 AM'] I know God created Satan good, and gave him free will, and then Satan chose bad, but why does God allow Satan to wreak havoc in this world? Is it somehow part of His devine plan, that without Satan, without evil we cannot truly love God? Does Satan merely exist to reflect God's eternal goodness, benevolence and perfection? [/quote] Allowing satan to exist I think might show how great His Mercy is. We don't have a right to go to Heaven. We need to pass the test. Maybe satan is allowed to test us for that very purpose - to test us. God Bless, ironmonk Edited January 6, 2005 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karin Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 angels when they were created chose weither to be good or evil. Evil is the Abscense of good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Ecvil is the rejection of Good, defineing it as an absence really means it is nothing, yet itis something it is an act of Will, an act of rejection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 [quote name='karin' date='Jan 6 2005, 01:14 PM'] angels when they were created chose weither to be good or evil. Evil is the Abscense of good [/quote] Cold is the abscense of hot.... Evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of the opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among humans beings at least, the sufferings in which life abounds. Thus evil, from the point of view of human welfare, is what ought not to exist. Nevertheless, there is no department of human life in which its presence is not felt; and the discrepancy between what is and what ought to be has always called for explanation in the account which mankind has sought to give of itself and its surroundings. For this purpose it is necessary (1) to define the precise nature of the principle that imparts the character of evil to so great a variety of circumstances, and (2) to ascertain, as far as may be possible, to source from which it arises. ... [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm[/url] God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonius Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 (edited) It is a great mystery in the Divine Plan as to why God would allow evil to exist. [quote]"The Will of God is inscrutable." - St. Augustine[/quote] Edited January 6, 2005 by Antonius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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