The Ultimate Sacrifice/Cure for Abortion?

[bookwyrm]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Dec 30 2004, 08:15 PM'] If "regular" people were being killed at that rate, you can bet that we'd be warring physical war. Not "praying" and "loving" the murderers.


[/quote]
I am so upset that I don't know what to say. How dare you say that I am not treating the unborn like human beings! I . . . aargh! For the sake of charity that's all I'm going to say. Don't ever accuse me of such a thing again, because it is completely untrue.

We are not 'allowing' abortion to happen - we are doing everything in our power to stop it. Do not underestimate the power of prayer!!!!!!!

[Guest Aluigi]

it is our right under certain circumstances

[quote]CCC 2243
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.
[/quote]

1 met, killing babies for 30 years
2 30 years of inneffective non-violent opposition while the death tole rose
3 can't get much worse than 4000 innocents per day
4 if we organized perhaps
5 we've been looking for a reasonable better solution for years

if they're not all met they're gettin close to met.


it would not be an evil action, you have not showed how it would be. it would be a just war to rebel against a government that has allowed mass murder for 30 years with no signs of stopping it. sure, there's some partial birth abortion legislation but the political realm utterly refuses to stop the killing. we would have every moral right to take charge where they have failed. not based on proportionalism, based on Just War Theory, based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Aluigi

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 31 2004, 12:45 PM'] it is our right under certain circumstances


1 met, killing babies for 30 years
2 30 years of inneffective non-violent opposition while the death tole rose
3 can't get much worse than 4000 innocents per day
4 if we organized perhaps
5 we've been looking for a reasonable better solution for years

if they're not all met they're gettin close to met. [/quote]
We are not a political authority. If they're not met, then no one can do it.

1. The government does not kill the babies. I do not think it's right to permit it, of course, but the government does not commit the murders. That's a clarification that must be made.
2. We haven't done all we can, and it seems it may come to an end soon. Thirty years isn't long.
3. It can, but it won't.
5. People are lazy as it is, very few do as much as they can. I know, I see it all the time. I can even say this about myself.

[quote]it would not be an evil action, you have not showed how it would be.  it would be a just war to rebel against a government that has allowed mass murder for 30 years with no signs of stopping it.  sure, there's some partial birth abortion legislation but the political realm utterly refuses to stop the killing.  we would have every moral right to take charge where they have failed.  not based on proportionalism, based on Just War Theory, based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

Actually, I have showed how it's evil. I think there are other solutions, and if that's the case, the material participation in evil that comes from a war would not be remote enough in this case. A basic principle states that it's an evil (lack of due order) not to keep your material cooperation as remote as possible. There are other solutions.

Have you ever said a vigil outside an abortion clinic? Are you a sidewalk counselor? Does everyone in your parish help out as much as they can?

[Guest Aluigi]

our parish isn't the most active it could be, but it is pretty active.

i personally haven't had that chance. however, people have been doing that for 30 years.

30 years isn't long? tell that to the millions that have died in those 30 years.

that's like sittin around in nazi germany saying 4 years isn't that long.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 31 2004, 12:57 PM'] our parish isn't the most active it could be, but it is pretty active.

i personally haven't had that chance. however, people have been doing that for 30 years.

30 years isn't long? tell that to the millions that have died in those 30 years.

that's like sittin around in nazi germany saying 4 years isn't that long. [/quote]
It's not the time, it's the effort. If no one's gonna stand up now, how can we justify a war effort? It's only for last recourse. Well, it's not such in this case.

[Guest Aluigi]

that's the point, people are standing up now and have been for 30 years. politicians have slithered around the issue and never done anything about it. we've been largely inneffective as 4000 babies per day are murdered.

[Q the Ninja]

They aren't doing very much, or enough. There isn't enough reason to go to war.

[Guest Aluigi]

yeah, okay, i would be more for an excalation in the prolife movement that includes surrounded aobrtion clinics and not allowing anyone in and massive protests every day, hunger strikes and all that. i'm simply saying that a war could be justified, but yeah there are other means that still need to be exhasted. but I don't mean the same means that have been done for years, i mean people really committing, there should be masses in the streets stopping all traffic, there should be people completely surrounding abortion clinics in a wall. a march once a year and some vigils outside abortion clinics has been ineffective.

[Q the Ninja]

Actually, you just said it can't. War is only just if it's a last recourse. I have something posted here about that. Just War Doctrine. Until we really start trying, we can't even begin to talk about war.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Q the Ninja

[Guest Aluigi]

also, any state that allows such a murder is as guilty of it as if it committed the acts itself. not to mention the monetary support the government gives it. make no mistake about it, our government (largely the judicial branch but the legislative too for failing to stop it) is responsible for these murders and every politician that has been indifferent or pro-abortion rights will have to answer on judgement day, and they would have to answer if a just war was undertaken as well.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Dec 31 2004, 01:02 PM'] They aren't doing very much, or enough. There isn't enough reason to go to war. [/quote]
4000 innocents murdered a day isn't enough to go to war?


We went to war over less than 4000 not-so-innocent people murdered in one day.


It's just not convienant and so we don't do it.

It's uncomfortable so we don't do it.

[Q the Ninja]

The government doesn't necessarily have to outlaw everything that's in Natural Law.

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Dec 31 2004, 01:06 PM'] Actually, you just said it can't. War is only just if it's a last recourse. I have something posted here about that. Just War Doctrine. Until we really start trying, we can't even begin to talk about war. [/quote]
i know, i've basically conceded that point here. however, armed resistance isn't far away and shouldn't be brushed off so hastily. if we do massive protests every day and hunger strikes and basically not allow society to FUNCTION until they deal with this issue and then after a year or two they haven't listened, armed resistance becomes necessary.

but i mean we really need to make it impossible for this society or this government to even function as long as it allows the murder of the innocents. this is righteous anger, and everybody should be feeling it. they are killing our children, they deserve death for that.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Dec 31 2004, 01:08 PM'] 4000 innocents murdered a day isn't enough to go to war?


We went to war over less than 4000 not-so-innocent people murdered in one day.


It's just not convienant and so we don't do it.

It's uncomfortable so we don't do it. [/quote]
Well, I can't say anything until I start doing more about it. No, 4000 murders is not a cause for just war if there's another solution, and I think there is.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Dec 31 2004, 01:09 PM'] Well, I can't say anything until I start doing more about it. No, 4000 murders is not a cause for just war if there's another solution, and I think there is. [/quote]
Pray doth tell what this solution may be....