Don John of Austria Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 I think the problem here is this-- is the means of violence evil. The answeris and has always been NO. Socrates I am sorry you do not understand or caree for the priciple of double affect, but let me also remind you, those unborn who go into an abortion clinic arn't comming out alive so the fact that they would be killed as an accedent in a strike on such a place is really of very little moral wieght, you are killing as a effect those who are about to be murdered anyway, so that you can stop others from killing more innocents in the future. That is well within the realm of Just war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 [quote]Love one another as I have loved you, precludes the use of violence on a personal level. Do not fall into the sin of despair. Catholic teaching is the end does not justify the means. Period. [/quote] The war doesn't have to be on a personal level. How does the end justify the means with other Just wars but not for the abortion Just war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianny01 Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 [quote]This is a last stand. We are on the losing side of this battle. Prayer has saved us from getting worse, but not enough of us pray for what is right. We are a dieing breed, if we dont make a stand somewhere or someplace in time, Catholicism will not survive. God gave us the ability to choose our future, do you believe that he wanted his servants to cease to exist?[/quote] We shouldn't despair because it seems we are losing. Evil will never completely triumph over the Catholic Church; see Matthew 16:18. In the fullness of time, God will always come out on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 [quote name='Monoxide' date='Dec 28 2004, 09:58 PM'] By doing this, the man obviously violates many of the churches laws willingly, for he kills many men. But in doing so, he has an impact on abortion. He knows he will be condemed by his own church, his family and friends. But he feels that his eternity in hell is worth the eternity in hell of the babies slaughtered. [/quote] The ends never justify the means when human lives are lost. Especially since the unborn children are met with eternal salvation immediately. They do not, under any circumstances, go to purgatory, let alone hell. The entire act seems very non sequitur. Killing people who support abortion? This act is similar in reason to capital punishment: a life for a life. [quote]If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 wow, you're smarter than Aquinas and the Church, from whence did this special revelation come that babies stained with original sin go to the beatific vision? even the CCC can only hope and pray for that, but does not know of any means other than baptism for this to happen. I believe in a temporary limbo, for as limbo was freed at the first coming of Christ, so too might he free limbo in his second coming. limbo is a place where they are the most happy anyone on earth could ever be, what the scholastic tradition would call "a state of natural hapiness". it just cannot have the beatific vision because a soul in original sin would be weighed down unable to ascend to Heaven and the Beatific Vision. this is for another thread, we recently had a quite extensive thread about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 URL] [quote]Especially since the unborn children are met with eternal salvation immediately. They do not, under any circumstances, go to purgatory, let alone hell. [/quote] That is extremly close to heresy if not out right heresy. Here is the thread on exactly this topic [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25918"]aborted babies and salvation[/url] Suffice it to say aborted babies do not go to heaven, I pray there is a Limbo but it is very possible that aborted babies go to Hell. However it is not possible that they go to Heaven. I am even suspect of Aluigi's temporary limbo idea. Aborted Babies Cannt go to Heaven they cannot, so think agian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 i understand it's suspect, it's speculative theology. but it seems to contradict no Divinely Revealed Truth. the babies with original sin are not ascending to the beatific vision as to their nature as souls stained with original sin, they are going to the same state that just jews went to before Christ came because they are in original sin but have not had the chance to be baptized through Christ. when Christ came the first time he freed the souls that were in the exact same state. so He very well could do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 (edited) Ok, I'm sorry, I knew it would be a mistake posting in this forum. I'm sorry. As you can very easily tell, I am only beginning my quest in apologetics. Never before have I been called a heresy, and I apologize for now making myself seem very phishy. That wasn't something I learned on my own, but rather a fact stated in a past high school religion class. I never intended to state it as a straight fact, it was to my knowledge, however, that since they died of fault not their own, and therefore had no opprtunity to commit sin (outside that of original sin), they were not damned to hell. I was told they were indeed to be found in Purgatory (or Limbo), and then, only for a brief period of time. Obviously, I was misinformed. Thank you for warning me. Edited December 31, 2004 by Tink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 don't sweat it. Don John's just a blunt guy. limbo is speculative theology. there are modern theologians with speculative theology that says the baby is mystically cleared of original sin and gets to go to heaven. i think that's not within the tradition of the Church and will eventually be weeded out. limbo has fallen out of popular belief but i really think a state of natural hapiness (which i believe may even be temporary) is a great scenario for these aborted babies. I don't think they go to hell but it is not within the tradition of the Church to outright rule that out as an impossibility. it's something that we really don't know by Divine Revelation. there's just tons of speculative theology been shot around through the ages. for all we know there could be something we never even imagined. maybe their bodies are resurected on another plant and baptized by angels for all we know really. speculative theology just must avoid contradicting any divinely revealed truths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Aluigi I'm not attacking you, I am just saying I find it suspect, I can't put my finger on it but I have anagging feeling there is something wrong with it, however I know that the idea is motivated by your Christian Charity, and that should it be officially shot down that you would submit to the Church, please don't take offence. Tink-- no harm done. Origional sin is sufficiant to cause one to Go to Hell, but with out actual sin it is thought that God would not condemn one to such a Fate ( that is pius IX but I don't believe this statement comes to the level of Dogmatc) this really only leaves the limbo option. However since a Limbo has not been revealed we are in a quandry, howwever for certian aborted babies cannot go to Heaven without some sort of tremendous extraordianry unknown means.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Kind of like God's Mercy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 no offence taken, I understand. just sayin so far never seen anything substantial contradicting this idea, only stuff supporting it. the fact that limbo would be basically the same state for the same reasons (lack of Trinitarian Baptism and Christ's redemption) and we all know what happened to souls in that state the last time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 (edited) Crusader don't get started on this-- Aborted babies are tainted with origional sin, the Tradition of the Church puts a great deal more wieght on them going to Hell than even the Limbo option, any other position either flirts with universalistic heresy or it is a universalistic heresy. Edited December 31, 2004 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 wow, thanks for not killing me guys! I read the majority of the other thread, extremely insightful! This all makes much more sense now. I'll be having a talk with my former theology teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Aluigi it isn't the same reason, Trinitarian Baptism exist Now, it is required now, it did not exist then and so could not be required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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