The Ultimate Sacrifice/Cure for Abortion?

[cathqat]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jan 3 2005, 07:17 PM']Pressured by who?  By What?[/quote]

The circumstances in which they live and the people they know and trust.

[quote]Why weren't there "social resources"?  Are you talking money? Medical care? Support groups?  Friends and families to hold their hands?[/quote]

Money and medical care fall under what I am calling "practical resources." Social resources are relationships with supportive people. When you discuss the abortion decision with women, you find that social resources are a huge factor in the abortion decision; usually the most decisive factor.

Most women who decide to carry a baby through pregnancy, whether they keep the baby or give the child for adoption, are women who have supportive family and friends (the people they know, trust, and rely upon), a network of people who are present and eager to help. Most women who decide to get abortions do not have supportive family and friends. In fact, many are actually pressured by the people they know, trust, and rely upon (through words, actions, threats, etc.) to abort.

I can't tell you how many women I have talked to who were, for example, who were constantly pressured by their own mothers to get abortions. Their mothers told them they could not possibly have a child, told them that they were worthless and stupid, told them the child would ruin their lives, threatened to oust and disown them and leave them destitute, made clinic appointments and drove their daughters to the clinic telling them they had no choice, etc. etc. It's really sick and perverse, but it happens all the time.

This is not a question of mere "hand-holding." Ask any mother you know how difficult it is (or would be) to have a child without any social support, encouragement, or help, especially from the people they trust and rely upon the most. I have friends without children who have horrific difficulties enough living without local support networks. It is one of the hardest crosses imaginable, I assure you.

There are many great women, of course, who would gladly do all of this alone to the best of their ability, and they are amazing heroes who deserve our constant admiration. But although I do not believe that abortion is ever, [i]ever[/i] justified in any circumstances, I do understand why some women really believe they have no other choice.

[quote]If I've learned anything over the last couple of years, it's that there are ABUNDANT programs for women and children ALL OVER THE PLACE.  All one has to do is look or ask.[/quote]

Most of these programs and facilities are desperately underfunded and shortstaffed though. More pro-lifers need to commit themselves to providing these resources. There is no way we can believably claim that we have done all that can be done.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 3 2005, 07:18 PM'] Don John and I may not agree often, rarely perhaps (J/K sir), but he is faithful to Vatican II. [/quote]
If that is true, then why did he call it heretical?

[cathqat]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jan 3 2005, 07:38 PM']Accusing someone of being a heretic who is clearly not a heretic is a heretical fallacy. I have made no such claim about you.[/quote]

I didn't call Don John a heretic. I really thought, based on his comment on [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i], that he was not a Catholic. And if he were not a Catholic, then it wouldn't matter to him what Vatican II said, so it would be pointless for me to quote it like I did. Hence, "I thought you were Catholic. I'm sorry."

You, on the other hand, really did accuse me of "heretical fallacy." What do you mean you made no such claim?

[quote]Newbies should be mindful of toes they might be a-tramplin'.[/quote]

I'm not trying to trample any toes; just the opposite. If he is not Catholic, as I thought after he called it heretical, it was pointless for me to post a G&S quote, which is why I apologized for doing it.

But if he is Catholic, then I think he should explain why he called G&S heretical.

Edited January 4, 2005 by cathqat

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Read all the words carefully. What this condemning is the notion that it is best that popular education be freed from the authority of the Church. It is not a condemnation of the right to education in general. There is no contradiction involved. [/quote]

I assure you I have read aLL the words in the entire Syllubus Quite carefully, you however are not being so careful this is what is condemned that 'The best theory of society requires that the popular schools open to children of every class of the people[color=red], and,[/color]..." that [color=red]comma and [/color]is pivotal,( it indicates the end of a thought, if it was not so it would simply have a comma) one does not have a right to an education, schools do not have to be open to the Children of every class of people, so one cannot have a right to it. To say that one does is to embrace the error.


[quote] I'm new here, OK? And this guy just told me that Gaudium et Spes, a Vatican II document, is heretical. What conclusion should I draw? [/quote]



Gaudium et Spes is a Pastorial Constitution it is pastorial opinion it is not protected from Error in the same way as is a Dogmatic statement. however the Syllubus fits all of the requirements for infallability so it must be taken in that light and with that Authority. I assure you I am completly Faithful to the Magisterium not the Current Magesterium or the Old Magesterium nor the Ancient Magesterium but The Magisterium, the entire teaching of the Church not just the teaching fashionable right now.

Edited January 4, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]If we can each save 1 or 2 or 10 or 20 or a 100 - aren't we doing the Lord's work? More so than if we define our society as one deserving of being the target of a "just war?" [/quote]

Yes saving the unborn is Gods work; is it more so than stoping all of them No. But I don't really like comparing what is more or less " Gods work", Gods work is just That Gods work.

[Don John of Austria]

so Socrates you decided to abandon the Whole " the Romans where converted by peaceful sweetness " tract Good it made you look foolish.

[Socrates]

I abandoned nothing. I've got better things to do with my time. This is a blatant distortion of what I was saying in my post and you know it!

There were many martyrs early Church, but no terrorists! The early Christians did not run around killing people to spread the Faith, and the Church had already spread considerably before Constantine. And of course, the Faith continued to spread after Constantine.

The facts about Constantine do not change my point. Constantine was an actual general in an actual war and had a legitimate claim to the throne. He was not just some guy who decided to wage violence against society for a righteous cause.

And without the peaceful witness of the martyrs, it is doubtful that the Empire would have been much Christianized.

How many "terrorist" saints do you know? (not soldiers, but revolutionary killers)

[color=red][Edited by Kilroy the Ninja: Name-calling is not allowed.][/color]

I could say a lot more, but I shall shake the dust from my feet and move on.

Edited January 4, 2005 by Kilroy the Ninja

[cathqat]

Do you say the same of [i]Pacem in Terris[/i] and other Church documents, that they are heretical too?

[quote]But first We must speak of [i]man's rights. Man has the right to live.[/i] He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and, finally, the necessary social services. In consequence, he has the right to be looked after in the event of illhealth; disability stemming from his work; widowhood; old age; enforced unemployment; or whenever through no fault of his own he is deprived of the means of livelihood.... [i]He has the natural right to share in the benefits of culture, and hence to receive a good general education, and a technical or professional training consistent with the degree of educational development in his own country. Furthermore, a system must be devised for affording gifted members of society the opportunity of engaging in more advanced studies[/i], with a view to their occupying, as far as possible, positions of responsibility in society in keeping with their natural talent and acquired skill. - Pacem in Terris [/quote]

Pius XII taught the same "heresy," as did [i]Gravissimus Educationis[/i].... And the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, too!

[quote][i]Every human being has a right to culture[/i], which is the specific mode of a truly human existence to which one gains access through the development of one's intellectual capacities, moral virtues, abilities to relate with other human beings, and talents for creating things which are useful and beautiful. [i]From this flows the necessity of promoting and spreading education, to which every individual has an inalienable right.[/i][/quote]

Edited January 4, 2005 by cathqat

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='PHATMike' date='Jan 3 2005, 12:55 PM'] And if you are right and this is okay...then why aren't we doing it now? Because in our hearts we know its wrong. [/quote]
Apparently it's because we have no courage, etc.

Honestly, I think that if the Church said right now that we should have a physical war on abortion, most of the people on this website would listen. However, the Church hasn't said that so we're looking at Scripture and Tradition and past things said by the Magesterium, trying to figure out whether or not it's something we could morally and/or should at this point do.


[quote]It is not simply "selfish" to desire an education or employment.[/quote]

It's selfish to desire an education or employment over the life of your own child.

[quote] Do the mother and child's rights "conflict"?[/quote]

If there were a right to education or employment (which I doubt there is), it would certainly be "overridden" by a child's right to life.

[quote]There is no question that women lack sufficient access to education and support services.[/quote]

That's no reason to kill a baby.

[quote]You tell them that it's not a problem.[/quote]

It's not a problem that will be solved by abortion.



And on a side note -- rights are forfeited by certain actions, are they not? It seems that many of the "rights" that are being discussed are surrendered when they are abused.

[cathqat]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jan 3 2005, 10:58 PM']It's selfish to desire an education or employment over the life of your own child.[/quote]

I already said nothing justifies abortion. Read it again.

[quote]If there were a right to education or employment (which I doubt there is)[/quote]

The Church explicitly teaches that there is. I have quoted more than one document already. If you don't want to believe what the Church teaches, that's your choice.

[quote]it would certainly be "overridden" by a child's right to life.[/quote]

It would not if we were doing what the Pope tells us to: "Profound changes are needed in the attitudes and organization of society in order to facilitate the participation of women in public life, while at the same time providing for the special obligations of women and of men with regard to their families.... Nor should the special difficulties and problems faced by single women living alone or those who head families be neglected."

[quote]That's no reason to kill a baby.... It's not a problem that will be solved by abortion.[/quote]

As I have already said, more than once, there is no justification for killing a baby. There is no problem that can or will be solved by abortion. We all agree on that.

But unless we address the root causes of abortion, it will not go away.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 3 2005, 07:54 PM'] If that is true, then why did he call it heretical? [/quote]
Did he?

Vatican II lines up with the Magisterium from before. It doesn't contradict anything, just rewords it.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:23 PM'] But unless we address the root causes of abortion, it will not go away. [/quote]
What exactly are you calling the root causes of abortion?

I'm having a hard time feeling empathy for people who allow others to influence them in such a grave matter.

[voiciblanche]

[quote]I already said nothing justifies abortion. Read it again.[/quote]

Oh, I've read it. I don't understand why you're explaining or justifying an argument with which you say you don't agree.

[quote]The Church explicitly teaches that there is. I have quoted more than one document already. If you don't want to believe what the Church teaches, that's your choice.[/quote]

I believe that there are ways to forfeit rights, such as education, and many uneducated women have done so, or their parents/relatives for them.

[quote]But unless we address the root causes of abortion, it will not go away.[/quote]

I agree, but I think there's right and wrong ways to address the causes.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 3 2005, 11:29 PM']Did he?[/quote]

I posted:
[quote]In fact, the Church considers [education and employment] basic human rights (c.f. Pacem in Terris, Gaudium et Spes, etc.), "necessary for living a genuinely human life," just as life itself is a basic human right.[/quote]

Don John responded:
[quote]Actually [b]the Idea that there is a right to an education[/b] or even that universal education is best [b]has been condemned infallibly as a heresy[/b][/quote]

I posted:
[quote]"At the same time, however, there is a growing awareness of the exalted dignity proper to the human person, since he stands above all things, and his rights and duties are universal and inviolable. Therefore, there must be made available to all men everything necessary for leading a life truly human, such as food, clothing, and shelter; the right to choose a state of life freely and to found a family, [b]the right to education[/b], to employment, to a good reputation, to respect, to appropriate information, to activity in accord with the upright norm of one's own conscience, to protection of privacy and rightful freedom, even in matters religious." Gaudium et Spes[/quote]

Clearly, [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] promotes something which Don John called "heretical."

In respose to the [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] quote, he responded:
[quote]any document which contradicts [Syllabus] is not in keeping with the tradition of the Church and is in Error ( i.e. heresy)[/quote]

There is no question that Don John understands the Syllabus to condemn any "right to education," as his previous post said. So, at least implicitly, he is saying that [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] contradicts the Syllabus.

You said:
[quote]he is faithful to Vatican II.[/quote]

But Don John said:
[quote]Gaudium et Spes is a Pastorial Constitution it is pastorial opinion it is not protected from Error[/quote]

So he believes that [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] can teach error, and, by what has preceded this post, it seems reasonable to conclude that he actually believes [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] erred.

I have also posted:
[quote]"But first We must speak of man's rights. Man has the right to live. He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and, finally, the necessary social services. In consequence, he has the right to be looked after in the event of illhealth; disability stemming from his work; widowhood; old age; enforced unemployment; or whenever through no fault of his own he is deprived of the means of livelihood.... [b]He has the natural right to share in the benefits of culture, and hence to receive a good general education, and a technical or professional training consistent with the degree of educational development in his own country. Furthermore, a system must be devised for affording gifted members of society the opportunity of engaging in more advanced studies[/b], with a view to their occupying, as far as possible, positions of responsibility in society in keeping with their natural talent and acquired skill." - Pacem in Terris[/quote]
[quote]"[b]Every human being has a right[/b] to culture, which is the specific mode of a truly human existence to which one gains access through the development of one's intellectual capacities, moral virtues, abilities to relate with other human beings, and talents for creating things which are useful and beautiful. [b]From this flows the necessity of promoting and spreading education, to which every individual has an inalienable right[/b]." - Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/quote]

I would say that unless Don John changes his claim that "the Idea that there is a right to an education... has been condemned infallibly as a heresy" (e.g. by reinterpreting what the Syllabus actually means), he is indeed calling these teachings "heretical." (Others have suggested that his understanding of the Syllabus may be wrong. This seems more likely to me, personally.)

Do you see a different possibility?

You wrote:
[quote]Vatican II lines up with the Magisterium from before.  It doesn't contradict anything, just rewords it.[/quote]

I don't believe otherwise. But it certainly appears that Don John does.

Personally, I hope he is not saying what it seems like he is saying. But I haven't yet seen good evidence to the contrary.

[jmjtina]

The guy is a plain pscyho in theory and out. No one kills on his own authority. You can't do what you deem is right on your own when it comes to bombing the world.

SHould we have killed Norma McCorvey before Roe vs. Wade? Should we have killed those abortion doctors who have converted and are some of the biggest pro-life witnesses today? Should they have killed St. Paul before he killed so many Christians?

Should we go to war with the abortion industry? No. It would set back the pro-life cause AND truly be a double standard of being pro-life. It is through peace and prayer......

The Pro-Life movement has not done enough to unite ALL pro-lifers......I mean come on! Look at the National Right to Life voting AGAINST a pro-life law! There is alot of work we need to do and I myself don't pray hard enough. I think that's the only way we can help the mothers and children overcome the lie and illusion of the abortion industry. Through prayer.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.

Edited January 4, 2005 by jmjtina