The Ultimate Sacrifice/Cure for Abortion?

[Don John of Austria]

distributism is a differant system it is a flat rejection of socialism? Communism.

[Theoketos]

[quote]
1 met, killing babies for 30 years
2 30 years of inneffective non-violent opposition while the death tole rose
3 can't get much worse than 4000 innocents per day
4 if we organized perhaps
5 we've been looking for a reasonable better solution for years[/quote]

That is off.

1. No disputes the Just Caus in this case, and I concide to that point, but I raise who this cause would be against?
2. I strongly disagree that it has not been effective.
3. O Yes it can and would. (War even if just is not pretty)
4. We could go round and round on this, but taking the microcosm of the phorum, I doubt it.
5. There are way better solutions that are in action right now, but they need your support.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jan 1 2005, 01:17 PM'] Not when that Just War is revolutionary in nature. [/quote]
I still think you'd have to have a leading body. The colonies did. Any revolution I can think of was between to authoritative bodies, one escaping the other.

[quote]Bush has cut the direct funding but not the indirect funding, public hospitals are still required to offer  abortion services.[/quote]

That's a start, and it shows that things are being done about abortion, that it's tending towards non-existence, albeit slowly.

[quote]No really your not,  the big picture is the one that takes into account Justice for the entire world, not just those who happen to be born who happen to be in our little corner of it.  but leets take a worst case senerio and say that the US and Canada where both embroiled  in  a long bloody civil war the realistic fatalities in such a war would be very unlikely to go above 2 or 3 million and that is a long and bloody war,  or in other words less than or equal to, the amount of babies aborted in 2 years.[/quote]

Just look at how many died in the Great War and World War II. The death tolls of countries were much higher than 2 or 3 million. I'm not including the Holocaust here. I think the numbers would be much higher here in such a battle.

[quote]We have they have been and still are only marginally effective, or not effective at all.[/quote]

If we have, then why are there more things I might be able to try?

[quote]about 1.9 percent, comparatively we murder about .6 percent of our population every year through abortion, and we have been doing so for 30 years.[/quote]

That's not a very reassuring number. How many people would probably be lost in a war over abortion?

[quote]That is as Ithcus likes to say, begging the question. Your question assumes that we have not done all that can be done, and further assumes that 32 years is right away. That sir is a logical fallascy of the most basic order, it is exactly  what is being debated here.[/quote]

I'm looking at the history of the world. In the Catholic Church it normally takes 50-100 years, if not more, for an issue to be resolved. Very rarely does it take place in less time than that. What we're looking at is a social issue. Our population has been in existence over 6000 years. For us to say that 32 years is a long time is missing the past 5968. Thirty-two years isn't long in the whole scheme of things. It's something that, sadly, and as much as I don't want it to, will take a little longer to resolve.

[quote]Would you like an historical example or the qualities that make one legitimate perhaps I should give you both.[/quote]

May I also have the source for the qualities?

[quote]Historical examples-- The Holy Roman Empire under the Rulership of the Hapsburgs, the Austrian Hungarian Empire under the same House. The Government of France up until the French Revolution  and only intermeitantly since then. The Government of England before about 1530. The Government of Aragon and Navarre.[/quote]

What made their origins just?

[quote]In order to be legitimate a government must conform to the Divine will, in that it cannot
A. legislate acts which are in direct contradiction to the well being of it's subjects
B legislate acts which seperate the Church from the state
C legislate acts which are in direct contradiction with the Reveled truths of God and promote or codify heresy
D deny that all authority comes from God and try to justify its use of Power as coming from "the people" or from a book or anything else.
E make war on God, His Holy Name, His Honor, or His Chrurch
F. Not legislate acts which are outside the Authority of the State, or legislate acts arbitrarly
G be ruled by an excommunicate


On the contrary a legit government [i]must [/i]
A defend the well being of all of its subjects without prejudice
B Submit to the Church, in matters over which the Church has dominion
C  Accept that as all authority comes from God the use of Power by the State must be limited to those things which are within the States rights, ie. the State must accept its limitations
D defend the Holy Name of God, His Honor, and His Church[/quote]

[Q the Ninja]

[quote]Reply to Objection 2. The purpose of human law is to lead men to virtue, not suddenly, but gradually. Wherefore it does not lay upon the multitude of imperfect men the burdens of those who are already virtuous, viz. that they should abstain from all evil. Otherwise these imperfect ones, being unable to bear such precepts, would break out into yet greater evils: thus it is written (Ps. 30:33): "He that violently bloweth his nose, bringeth out blood"; and (Mt. 9:17) that if "new wine," i.e. precepts of a perfect life, "is put into old bottles," i.e. into imperfect men, "the bottles break, and the wine runneth out," i.e. the precepts are despised, and those men, from contempt, break into evils worse still.[/quote]

That's Thomas' thought on Human Law. He says that it can't be sudden, which happened in the first place. Right now we're seeing laws slowly do this.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote]On the contrary, We read in De Lib. Arb. i, 5: "It seems to me that the law which is written for the governing of the people rightly permits these things, and that Divine providence punishes them." But Divine providence punishes nothing but vices. Therefore human law rightly allows some vices, by not repressing them.[/quote]

[cathqat]

Funny how, if this "never see the beatific vision" idea was as certain as you seem to claim, the [i]Catechism[/i] fails to mention it (c.f. 1260), as does [i]Evangelium Vitae[/i] (99).

Regarding the use of violence, I will continue to follow the pope and bishops rather than your interpretation. I do not think the use of violence is in any way advisable in the abortion issue.

[bookwyrm]

[quote name='Tink' date='Jan 1 2005, 05:13 AM'] Um, well bookwyrm and I just admitted to it.


And March for Life will be awesome! Maybe I'll see you there! [/quote]
Well, until abortion is ended, we obviously haven't done enough!

And it would be really cool to see you there!!

[bookwyrm]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jan 1 2005, 02:32 PM']
I don't mean to offend you, but there's [i]so[/i] much more that can be done. I mean, I'm younger than fifteen and I can still think of thousands and thousands of things that just I myself could do. [/quote]
Oops, just saw this.

[PHATMike]

Okay okay, so I've been reading this thread and trying to get through it all and listening to people try and justify killing abortionists, how the catholic church will soon die out and that people of prayer are a dying breed??? It seems very easy to forget that Jesus has already conquered Death and thus has conqured abortion! Plus the CCC does teach that aborted babies though not baptised CAN go to Heaven because if they were saved the WOULD have been baptized. I believe in a mercifull God...would He let the most innocent among us succumb to the horrors of hell because of the sins of their mother...NO WAY. To be pro-life is to be for life in ALL cases. To be Catholic is to First believe in Jesus...WHO NEVER TAUGHT VIOLENCE!! Prayer is more powerful than we will ever know...so KEEP PRAYING!

[Tink]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date=' Jan 1 2005, 01:32 PM']
I don't mean to offend you, but there's [i]so[/i] much more that can be done. I mean, I'm younger than fifteen and I can still think of thousands and thousands of things that just I myself could do. I mean, if I did the things I do now much, much more, that would make a difference. If I spent time with girls my own age that are looking into abortion, that would make a difference. What if I gave up everything I have for poverty? That's like a million birds with one stone, and I [i]could[/i] do it. Even things I can't do until I'm an adult, I don't know if I'd do them all... there's so much to be done that isn't being done, and if I thought I was doing all I could now, there'd be more to be done. I guarantee it. [/quote]
I really don't care, I don't find it offensive, but a little scrupulous. Perhaps if you didn't spend time pointing out minor flaws in posts not even meant to make an impact, you would have more time to do things more worthwhile, such as the acts of charity you so meticulously mentioned. I am doing what I can with the time an money I have. Sure, I could give all my money to charity, but if I did, I wouldn't be able to pay for so many of the obligations I have now, thus pressuring my parents into spending more money on me. And of course I could spend time counseling girls my age at the local Women's Care Center, but right now God is calling me to be a student [b]and[/b] a servant. So I stick with what I said, I am doing all I can.

Edited January 2, 2005 by Tink

[Tink]

[quote name='PHATMike' date='Jan 1 2005, 06:48 PM'] Plus the CCC does teach that aborted babies though not baptised CAN go to Heaven because if they were saved the WOULD have been baptized. I believe in a mercifull God...would He let the most innocent among us succumb to the horrors of hell because of the sins of their mother...NO WAY. [/quote]
I agree with the intent of your post, and I do believe that violence is rarely justified, yet this part of your post I am doubtful of. Where in the CCC does it teach such things? There are three ways an aborted infant could possibly be baptized: post mortum, in blood, and in desire. All of these are speculations, however, and I find it funny that you can make such a profound and definite statement in regards to this when even the Pope himself is outside absolute knowledge of this possible truth. Also, outside the realms of baptism, one must rely on Divine Mercy to deliver a soul from Hell. There are no guarantees, though you certainly make it sound so.

Edited January 2, 2005 by Tink

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Tink' date='Jan 1 2005, 09:43 PM'] I really don't care, I don't find it offensive, but a little scrupulous. Perhaps if you didn't spend time pointing out minor flaws in posts not even meant to make an impact, you would have more time to do things more worthwhile, such as the acts of charity you so meticulously mentioned. I am doing what I can with the time an money I have. Sure, I could give all my money to charity, but if I did, I wouldn't be able to pay for so many of the obligations I have now, thus pressuring my parents into spending more money on me. And of course I could spend time counseling girls my age at the local Women's Care Center, but right now God is calling me to be a student [b]and[/b] a servant. So I stick with what I said, I am doing all I can. [/quote]
Her point was that there's no way to justify going to war because no one's done as much as they can.

Just look at this thread.

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='PHATMike' date='Jan 1 2005, 06:48 PM'] Okay okay, so I've been reading this thread and trying to get through it all and listening to people try and justify killing abortionists, how the catholic church will soon die out and that people of prayer are a dying breed??? It seems very easy to forget that Jesus has already conquered Death and thus has conqured abortion! Plus the CCC does teach that aborted babies though not baptised CAN go to Heaven because if they were saved the WOULD have been baptized. I believe in a mercifull God...would He let the most innocent among us succumb to the horrors of hell because of the sins of their mother...NO WAY. To be pro-life is to be for life in ALL cases. To be Catholic is to First believe in Jesus...WHO NEVER TAUGHT VIOLENCE!! Prayer is more powerful than we will ever know...so KEEP PRAYING! [/quote]
the Catechism of the Catholic Church says the Church knows of no means other than baptism but prays and hopes that maybe their original sin will be wiped out through some extraordinary means. this is a maybe, a hope (not even necessarily what one would call a probable hope, having hope does not make it a definite possibility, it is hoped that it might be a possibility).

who said the Church would die out? just wars defending the innocent are usually good for the Faith actually. like the Crusades for instance. even WWII.

Jesus was not a pacifist anyway, pacifism is not within the Christian Tradition. The Early Church was against war and forbid its members from being soldiers because there were pagan authorities and the Church had never witnessed a just war. Augustine and the fathers mapped it out that war can be just after they finally realized that was the only way to protect the rising of Christianity. now there were Christain-friendly authorities so the Church made use of war. it's good.

Jesus commanded His disciples that if they didn't have a sword, sell their cloak and buy one. He rebuked Peter when Peter's first recourse was to the sword, yes. those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. but notice Peter did own a sword, a pacifist Jesus would have commanded him to get rid of it a long time ago. Jesus chose not to call down legions of angels to slaughter the Roman soldiers because He had to go willingly to sacrifice Himself. He affirms the right of the state to execute telling Pilate he has authority from God to take away His life. And he never retracts the statement of Holy Scripture that says that anyone who sheds man's blood by man shall his blood be shed.

anyway, if we rose up and took power, the state that legalized and supported baby murder would be justly taken down and a new state that illegalized it would be justly established. the question is would we be just in deciding to take the action, we have determined that not until we begin rioting in the streets and really making ourselves heard should we resort to violence. but violence is definitely a plausible last resort, and if it were done the murderers would justly receive execution and the state would be justly overturned.

[Q the Ninja]

It wouldn't be execution, but by that I don't mean that their death won't be just.

[Monoxide]

You folks do realize that the number of abortions per day is going up world wide. The United Nations is a key player in the increase as well?