declaring war on abortion

[Tink]

First off, I still can't believe we have, what, three threads for this?

Next, to keep it short and simple, man may not merit life, yet it is not for fellow man to take it away. I would have to say, like I did in my infamous heresy post , that although abortion is indeed a horrendous 'crime' against the dignity of the human person, I would have to follow what the Catechism states about capital punishment: unless there are no other means to protect the innocent from such aggressors to the best of our ability, violent means shouldn't be used. In this case, no matter how many vigils you hold and no matter how many people you kill, there will always be people in support of abortion. To deem in necessary to obliterate a large portion of the world's population in efforts towards a more peaceful society seems not only ridiculous, but highly hypocritical.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Why doesn't it deserve to continue it's existence? Because it has a bad law? Then you are saying that a majority of the world's nations don't deserve to even exist just because they all allow abortion. That is not logical, or supported by church teaching.
[/quote]

No no the reasons we don't have a right to exist are far to numerous to list here, but for starterss we have no just begining and we are ruled by evil principals however the fact that we allow abortion is plenty of reason that we don't have a right to exist and yes it is supported by Chruch teaching, you should really study Church teaching a bit better, technicly you are not obliged to obey any excommunicated soverign, except for Kennedy all of ours have been, so think on that.

[quote]
And yes, the continued existence of a nation does have moral weight. The church calls us to be good citizens, and to make our nation a better place. I don't see how irrevocably and utterly destroying it will make anything better, or make the other side change their views in the least. All it will do will create a huge rift between the two sides, and we will be fighting for forever like the Israelis and Palestinians.[/quote]


And I don't see how allowing our country to murder Children would fall in that good citizen catagory, agian the existance of Nations( as a concept) carries moral wioeght, but not the existance of any particular nation.

[quote]I did not mean what you want, and obviously you do want this, so that was what I was talking about[/quote]

No you said "anything you want" which is a loaded phrase implying triviality-- if you don't mean to carry an implication don't use phrases loaded with them.
[quote]
How was our constitution evil from the beginning? Evil just because it didn't turn us into a completely Christian nation, where only our views and values would be tolerated? Oh, so you mean like Iran, but Christian. How nice. And you seem to think that this nation is just the evilest thing in the world. I hate to have to inform you of this, but its a heck of a lot better than any other country.[/quote]

Wow well lets see our constitution was founded on secular humanism ( which is an Evil in itself) it declares a seperation of Church and State which is a defined Heresy-- the Church and the State should be joined. That is the Teaching of the Church. This nation is the current champion of Evil in the world, does that mean that there are not more evil nations no, there certianly are,however are status as a great power enables use to spread our evil across the world, agians tany who would oppose us. I think there are other nations better than use, but slowly our vision of te world is curropting even them.






[quote] No nation is perfect, but yet you seem to think that only Christians should be running this country, and that nobody else's opinion matters or counts. You also seem to think that just because there are people who disagree with you, and that there are laws passed that you don't agree with, that that nation is evil. That is just completely false.
[/quote]
No i think that Catholics should be running this country, I think Catholics should be running every Country, Frankly that is the only sensible option since I think everyone should be a Catholic-- I desire this for their own Good because of course "Outside the Chruch there is No Salvation" to desire that anyone exist in a state other than as a Catholic is hateful to the point of sin.



[quote]And I said unless it was affecting you, you shouldn't go to war, because war should be the last last step. I never said we shouldn't do anything. Thank you, but I have been to many a protest against abortion. And thanks for calling myself evil, glad to know that everything you say is prone to exaggeration.[/quote]


Yes you said unless it was affecting you- and that is an evil attitude, thatisn't an exaggeration that is a fact.

[quote]and yes, we are all going to go to hell because we didn't kill our fellow American's, destroy our country, its economy, the very articles by which it was founded, and in the process harm those of all the other countries in the world. I'm glad I have you here to tell me that I'm going to hell, glad I don't have to wait for God to make that decision. [/quote]

I didn't say you personally would go to Hell I don't know the Fate of any individual I said WE would have earned our place in Hell as a corprate statement. The allowance of mass murder is a great and terrible thing.

[quote]So go ahead, go and start one of the greatest and deadliest religious crusades that there has ever been. And when it's over, and when the abortionists still don't want to change sides, and when the country is totally split, at least YOU know you'll be going to heavent and that you helped out so so so many people. Have fun with that. [/quote]

Woww I am sure thats supoose to hurt my feallings but you see I believe as part of the Faith that Crusades are good and meritorius things, and i assure you if a silver cross showed up on my door step I would gladling lose my life following it. You see I really don't see going to war as a means of converting abortionist, I hope that they willbe converted, but as what Aluigi said figurtively i mean absolutly literally, if they will not stop murdering the innocent then i pray they repent as they face the sword.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 31 2004, 03:50 PM'] No no the reasons we don't have a right to exist are far to numerous to list here, but for starterss we have no just begining and we are ruled by evil principals however the fact that we allow abortion is plenty of reason that we don't have a right to exist and yes it is supported by Chruch teaching, you should really study Church teaching a bit better, technicly you are not obliged to obey any excommunicated soverign, except for Kennedy all of ours have been, so think on that. [/quote]
What's a just beginning then?

[quote]And I don't see how allowing our country to murder Children would fall in that good citizen catagory, agian the existance of Nations( as a concept) carries moral wioeght, but not the existance of any particular nation.[/quote]

It doesn't, and most people on here would agree.

[quote]Wow well lets see our constitution was founded  on secular humanism ( which is an Evil in itself) it declares a seperation of Church and State which is a defined Heresy-- the Church and the State should be joined. That is the Teaching of the Church.  This nation is the current champion of Evil in the world, does that mean that there are not more evil nations no, there certianly are,however are status as a great power enables use to spread our evil across the world, agians tany who would oppose us.  I think there are other nations better than use, but slowly our vision of te world is curropting even them.[/quote]

In what way does it say separation of Church and state? Church should not be determined by state. And state would be poor if run by the Anglican Church, the one they're leaving behind.

[quote]No i think that Catholics should be running this country, I think Catholics should be running every Country, Frankly that is the only sensible option since I think everyone should be a Catholic-- I desire this for their own Good because of course "Outside the Chruch there is No Salvation" to desire that anyone exist in a state other than as a Catholic is hateful to the point of sin. [/quote]

Yes, but sadly, this won't happy (Catholics running each nation), at least, not right now.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Dec 31 2004, 06:41 AM'] Of all you proposing to go to "war," how many have actually stood vigil outside a clinic before?

Believe me, that works. [/quote]
I hate that. Many of the mothers dont want to do it, but they feel they must, then when they come they meet those 'people', with higher-than-thou carp.

The only reason it works some of the time is becoz u emotionally blackmail the person.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Dec 31 2004, 01:43 PM'] You cannot separate God's words and Christ's words. They are the same. [/quote]
The OT and the NT are contradictory.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 31 2004, 02:17 PM'] Christ's apostles owned swords at his command and he once fashioned a whip against his enemies. sound like a pacifist to you? [/quote]
There is a passage in the Gospels where the Apostles go off to buy or get some weapons, are Christ taught a lesson on something related, and he shouted out 'Enough!', now according to two commentaries I have, both Catholic he was angry they had not learnt to trust solely in God and not a man's weapon.

Christ condemned war and violence. Even on the cross he didnt order his followers to attack them.

And just becoz the Apostles had them doesnt mean its right, they also falsely believed Christ was coming back in the 1st century...Wow looks like Peter wasnt infallible.

[cathqat]

Charles E. Rice's book [i]The Winning Side: Questions on Living the Culture of Life[/i] covers the "just war against abortion" question.

Personally, I agree with the U.S. Bishops' statement in [url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/criminal/ccv94.htm"][i]Confronting a Culture of Violence[/i][/url]:

[quote]Increasingly, our society looks to violent measures to deal with some of our most difficult social problems -- millions of abortions to address problem pregnancies, advocacy of euthanasia and assisted suicide to cope with the burdens of age and illness, and increased reliance on the death penalty to deal with crime. We are tragically turning to violence in the search for quick and easy answers to complex human problems. A society which destroys its children, abandons its old and relies on vengeance fails fundamental moral tests. Violence is not the solution; it is the most clear sign of our failures. We are losing our respect for human life. How do we teach the young to curb their violence when we embrace it as the solution to social problems?

We cannot teach that killing is wrong by killing. We have reached the point in one very visible case where a jury has urged the execution of the person who murdered the physician who was destroying unborn children. This cycle of violence diminishes all of us -- especially our children. For our part, we oppose both the violence of abortion and the use of violence to oppose abortion. We are clear in our total repudiation of any effort to advocate or carry out murder in the name of the pro-life cause. Such acts cannot be justified. They deny the fundamental value of each human life, and do irreparable harm to genuine pro-life witness. Just as clearly, a nation destroying more than one and a half million unborn children every year contributes to the pervasive culture of violence in our nation. We must affirm and protect all life, especially the most vulnerable in our midst.[/quote]

In [i]Living the Gospel of Life[/i], the bishops also wrote:

[quote]Our witness to respect for life shines most brightly when we demand respect for each and every human life, including those who fail to show that respect for others. The antidote to violence is love, not more violence.[/quote]

Likewise, Pope John Paul II has said on many occasions:

[quote]NO to death! ...NO to selfishness! ...NO to war! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity. (January 2003)[/quote]

[quote]Peace is always possible! But there must always be cooperation to uproot from cultures and lives the seeds of bitterness and misunderstanding, the will to prevail over one's neighbor, the arrogance of self interest and disdain for the other's identity.... Conflict is never inevitable! ...Violence begets violence. War must always be considered a defeat: a defeat of reason and of humanity. May men soon make a spiritual and cultural leap forward to outlaw war! Yes, never again war! (September 2004)[/quote]

[quote]Without conversion of the heart there is no peace! Peace is only achieved through love! Right now we are all asked to work and pray so that war disappears from the horizon of humanity. (March 2003)[/quote]

[quote]Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.... On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace.... Violence only delays the day of justice. Violence destroys the work of justice.... Do not listen to voices which speak the language of hatred, revenge, retaliation. Do not follow any leaders who train you in the ways of inflicting death. Love life, respect life, in yourself and in others. Give yourself to the service of life, not the work of death. Violence is the enemy of justice. Only peace can lead the way to true justice.... The true courage lies in working for peace. (September 1979)[/quote]

[quote]A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. (January 1999)[/quote]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 31 2004, 06:55 AM']If you want to stop an abortion give the mother a good reason not to kill her child.
Find out the reasons and fix the complications.[/quote]

I agree. It is not enough to outlaw abortion. We must also work to eliminate the root causes of abortion.

Abortion is a violent symptom of numerous systematic and structural economic and social injustices perpetrated against women. Abortion advocates have been telling people for decades that a "pro-choice" position is "liberating" to women, enabling their increased participation in the social and economic life of the nation. In reality, however, most women experience abortion as a capitulation to outside pressures rather than a personal liberation. According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the majority of women procuring abortions give more than one reason for doing so:
[list]
[*]3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities
[*]2/3 say they cannot afford a child
[*]1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner
[/list]
Women are not having abortions because they think it will be a fun, fulfilling, or emotionally satisfying experience. Women are having abortions because their jobs and schools refuse to cooperate with the needs of pregnant women and mothers. A few threaten to oust pregnant women, while many pregnant women are made to feel quite unwelcome even without the overt threat. Women are having abortions because they do not know anyone who will share or give them practical resources, like food, housing, medical and legal services, clothing, baby supplies, etc. Women are having abortions because their parents, husbands, boyfriends, and/or friends do not provide them any emotional or material support, and in many cases actually ask or expect them to abort. A lack of social resources is usually a more decisive factor than a lack of material resources. Frederica Mathewes-Green listened to women who had procured abortions to find out their reasons for making that choice. Her conclusion? "No one wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal, caught in a trap, wants to gnaw off its own leg," (c.f. Mathewes-Green, [i]Real Choices: Listening to Women, Looking for Alternatives to Abortion[/i], Conciliar Press).

So I say again: it is not enough to outlaw abortion. We must also work to eliminate the root causes of abortion.

This is why I strongly support groups like [url="http://www.nurturingnetwork.org"]the Nurturing Network[/url] and [url="http://www.feministsforlife.org"]Feminists for Life[/url]. They work to address the root causes of abortion.

[Tink]

Cathqat, I encourage you to post more often, you bring up some good points!
However, the family's over and I don't have the patience to sit down and type any long answer

God bless you!

[cathqat]

Thank you, Tink!

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 31 2004, 09:33 PM'] Even on the cross he didnt order his followers to attack them. [/quote]
With good reason. If the Apostles had attacked the Roman guards and Christ had managed to "get away"... our salvation would be non-existant.

[quote]And just becoz the Apostles had them doesnt mean its right, they also falsely believed Christ was coming back in the 1st century...Wow looks like Peter wasnt infallible.[/quote]

Reference, please?

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 31 2004, 09:26 PM'] I hate that. Many of the mothers dont want to do it, but they feel they must, then when they come they meet those 'people', with higher-than-thou carp.

The only reason it works some of the time is becoz u emotionally blackmail the person. [/quote]
[b]"Many of the mothers dont want to do it, but they feel they must..." [/b] no kidding?

[b]"The only reason it works some of the time is becoz u emotionally blackmail the person."[/b] ...emotionally blackmail the mother into... what? *Thinking that she is murdering her son or daughter?

excuse me - were you saying that helping mothers intending on abortion to realize that they will be paying someone to slay her child is wrong?

Am i misreading your posts on this, "Phatmasser777" ???

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 31 2004, 09:26 PM'] I hate that. Many of the mothers dont want to do it, but they feel they must, then when they come they meet those 'people', with higher-than-thou carp.

The only reason it works some of the time is becoz u emotionally blackmail the person. [/quote]
Well, I don't do that at all. Have you ever been out there yourself, or are you just going based on what you "know"?

I'm there if the woman wants to talk, and wants emotional support.

I support (at least most of) the idea of WomEn Deserve Better.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 31 2004, 09:28 PM'] The OT and the NT are contradictory. [/quote]
God, outside of time, perfect, is unchanging. He does not change. He does not contradict Himself. To do so is against His [i]Authentic Freedom[/i], using His free will in accordance with the Good (Himself). Otherwise, He'd be going against His own nature, and [i]that's[/i] impossible.

[cathqat]

Women [i]do[/i] deverve better than abortion. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

("Women Deserve Better" is one of [url="http://www.feministsforlife.org"]Feminists for Life[/url]'s slogans.)

[Q the Ninja]

Yep. Last year or the year before the Knights of Columbus helped promote that.

(At the March for Life that is, buying ads all over town).

Edited January 1, 2005 by Q the Ninja