declaring war on abortion

[dairygirl4u2c]

For those who believe that life at every stage in the womb is without a doubt a human being with a soul etc etc and that it should illegal to terminate them for that reason, how do you justify not going to warwith those who are prochoice?

I know some say that they do not want to hurt the "least" of Christ's "breathern". But by this logic, shouldn't we all be pacifists who do not go to war? Even when dictators are killing everyone?


I can see some legitimate reasons being not wanting to do something like declare a physical war on abortion because it might be unpractical etc, but to say it's only just because we shouldn't hurt the least of Christ's breathern doesn't seem to be a consistent argument for people who are Catholic and such and thus allowed to go to war for similar events.


So two questions.
How do you as Catholics justify not going to war?
Is saying you don't want to hurt the least of Christ's breathern at least one legitimate answer?

[Socrates]

The Church teaches that war must be declared by a legitimate authority (civil government.)

And beleive me if a legitimate authority would have the guts to declare war, I'd be first to take up arms!

Succession! Now more than ever!!!

[Guest Aluigi]

if a bunch of people organized and had a good chance of winning, it would be a very just war. 30 years means that now we can take up arms (if a legitimate group of people got together and winning was possible)

it was just for the irish to declare war on britain all those years ago (before the Republic) because they had backing and support and could win and it was a just cause (ending the extreme persecution of Catholics).

it would be just if we organized and warred against America to end the murder so long as we could win without more harm caused (meaning that we wouldn't be killing more than 4000 innocent people per day of the war)

[Don John of Austria]

Well Dairygirl I want to make sure I understand your question-- You are saying, why is it not morally obligatory for use to be at war with Abortionist. I think that is a very Good Question-- my answer would be this, it is morally obligatory, we are simply cowards. Some others have made statements justifying our lack of action which i wopuld like to respond too.


Socrates-- legetimate Authority is a simple thing, all adults have the Authority to defend the innocent, one does not require a governmental leader to call for war in order to fight in defence of the innocent, the Authority of the Church in declaring the unborn inoccent suffices to fulfill this requirement.

Aluigi-- Several things first I want to comment on the " reasnable chance of success criteria for Just war-- this is the most useless criteria for anything ever ever it is a flagrant denial of Gods power to the point of being heretical or it is a meaningless bit of fluff. For if God is with you who can stand agianst-- I would like to make a short quotation from the Bible whih I think shows this quite well

judges 7
[quote]The LORD said to Gideon, "You have too many soldiers with you for me to deliver Midian into their power, lest Israel vaunt itself against me and say, 'My own power brought me the victory.'
3
Now proclaim to all the soldiers, 'If anyone is afraid or fearful, let him leave.'" When Gideon put them to this test on the mountain, twenty-two thousand of the soldiers left, but ten thousand remained.
4
The LORD said to Gideon, "There are still too many soldiers. Lead them down to the water and I will test them for you there. If I tell you that a certain man is to go with you, he must go with you. But no one is to go if I tell you he must not."
5
1 When Gideon led the soldiers down to the water, the LORD said to him, "You shall set to one side everyone who laps up the water as a dog does with its tongue; to the other, everyone who kneels down to drink."
6
Those who lapped up the water raised to their mouths by hand numbered three hundred, but all the rest of the soldiers knelt down to drink the water.
7
The LORD said to Gideon, "By means of the three hundred who lapped up the water I will save you and will deliver Midian into your power. So let all the other soldiers go home."
[/quote]


God intentionally eleminated any reasonable chance of success just to show His power, If one is fighting for what is Good and holy one ALWAYS has a reasonable chance of success, to say otherwise is simply a lack of Faith.

Also remember the criteria of proportionality is not simply a numbers game, even if 4000 innocents a day where being killed in a war agianstthe abortionist, that might not be disproportionate, so long as they where accedental to the legitament procecution of the war, and where not being wotonly murdered.

[megamattman1]

i'm really not sure what would happen if someone were to declare war on abortion. if everyone against it was involved i bet there'd be some change.. after a bloody battle. at least a little change.

they'd be like terrorists the anti-abortionists, hard to kill. i guess it'd be hard to say what would happen so a reasonable chance of victory might not be achieveable.

i might argue that there's a reasonable chance of success. There's also a reasonable chance of failure. Depends on how you define a reasonable chance of success I suppose.

Edited December 29, 2004 by megamattman1

[dairygirl4u2c]

Yes, that's a good point. Essentially an Iraqi or Vietnam war scenario where it's just chaos.. or maybe even a civil war could or could not break out or who knows what.

the political system isn't doing a whole lot. And what do we do with the 4000 per day in the mean time?

It seems with 4000 aborted a day that the risk of harm outweighs anything else. Thanks Don.. I also think it comes down to just being cowards. cowards for not fighting.. and cowards for not at least trying to organize a movement.

Edited December 29, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Guest Aluigi]

there's no reasonable chance of success if i just run around with a machine gun.

there is if there's a group organizing.

i am too young to organize a group. you go get a following, organize a resistance force, and then talk to me. yeah, God's power is good. but u still have to organize and stuff. i'm talkin an organization like the IRA here for a chance of success. there's no chance unless there is an organization and a large enough backing.

it's not just being a coward, because if you believe in God's power to change it, you'd believe he'd also be able to work miracles through the political system. it would have to be organized and effective, or it would just be pointless violence. people that blow up abortion clinics now are not having any effect except making the general public mad at the pro-life cause. but if there was an organized and coordinated effort it could be good.

no one just go blow up an abortion clinic though cause that does nothing.

Edited December 29, 2004 by Aluigi

[thessalonian]

Dairy,

Excellent response Don. I love that quote about having too many soldiers.

Is your purpose in this thread to subvert Catholicism and try to make the gates of hell prevail? That hasn't happened in 2000 years ya know. The exact same question could be asked of the majority of Protestants who believe abortion is a grave moral evil. I think Don answers it best. God will show his power through abortion. It may be 500 faithful who make a real stand, whatever that is. Prayer, charity, faith and the scriptures are our greatest weapons today however. I believe that is the way in which we wage war against this abomination as Christians. I believe those outside of clinics witnessing to women (in a charitable way) and praying the Rosary are in fact fighting the very war you are accusing us of being too cowardly to do. Those who are engaging their coworkers in discussion are also waging that battle.

Blessings

[dairygirl4u2c]

My purpose is to make you think, that is all. My challenge goes out to Catholics and nons alike. I don't want to get too much in depth about my purposes though unless you think its necessary.

By the way, I agree that they are not cowards who do what you say, that takes courage. I may wonder if they have the appropriate courage to go another step and form coalitions and wage physical war.

So my primary response. Perhaps 500 may change the abortion scene. You say this type of work, praying, and witnessing is the solution. I caution you not to fall into an feigned ignorance and false idealism regarding your proposed methods. Your words sound pretty and a happy solution. But what has these methods all this time accomlished? Not too much.

You may say that we are working towards a solution. Is what is being done now accomplishing anything in the political realm? I do see hope in Acts such as asking for anastashia sp? for infants who are aborted to make people think about the humanity of the unborn and then think twice before the act. I'd probably argue no. Anyway, I think it's arguble whether or not anything significant is being done to stop abortion.

But either way what about those 4000 in the mean time? I think we all know that if regular people were being killed 4000 everyday that coalitions would be formed and war fought, right now. We wouldn't be saying things like "pray the rosary" or "witness to people".

ironmonk likes to give tough love (even when he's wrong ironically but I digress) and he's a role model to give it when you should. Iron, stop saying you don't want to not hurt the least of Christ's brethern. We all know that's an excuse. Be a man and fight, try to form a coalition, and/or admit you are a coward. And that goes for everyone else too. -_-

Yes I am full of myself, but you know it's true what I say. :ph34r:

Edited December 29, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[curtins]

we are at war- prayers are our m1 abrahms main battle tanks, rosaries our f14 tomcats, and letters our m4 assault rifles.

yes letters- im gonna get tlc up and running- im gonna start tonight


yes we are at war not by physical means but by spiritual and soon letter means

[dairygirl4u2c]

....

Edited December 29, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Ianny01]

I do not think that prayer or rosaries are useless. As mentioned above they are powerful weapons in that they invoke God's intervention. Now, how does God intervene? Many times he does so through the action of people. Indeed, letters, lobbying, etc. for the end to abortion are sourced in God because God is the source of all good.

In addition, prayer tends to change the one who prays and it can rouse them to more conventional (in terms of democracy) methods in this particular war. Got a good deal of this from a retreat! The stuff's not bad.

Sincerely,
Ianny01

[dairygirl4u2c]

I'm not saying the Catholic Church is, but as for individual members.. what's wrong with trying to subvert the hypocrites?


though I should note. If one says that those prayers and stuff are the means because physical means are most likely or possibly unpractical or for other such decent reasons, then that is probably okay. But I do take issue if you think that's the primary way to fight.. prayers etc I mean.

And ya know, even if it seems unpractical. Think of it in terms of regular people. If they were being killed 4000 a day, but it was possibly unpractical to stop them, would be sit idally by and say pray the rosary etc?

Edited December 29, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]do not think that prayer or rosaries are useless. As mentioned above they are powerful weapons in that they invoke God's intervention. Now, how does God intervene? Many times he does so through the action of people. Indeed, letters, lobbying, etc. for the end to abortion are sourced in God because God is the source of all good.

[/quote]


And sometimes He intervense with an individual or group picking up arms and stoping those that would oppose Him, remember God is not a Pacifist, God is A Warrior God.

Edited December 29, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[hyperdulia again]

We will owe God an accounting for te children we are letting die. I am a coward, I have decided that I cannot deprive my children of me in order to stop what I believe to be the most destructive force at work in our society.