I was recently tempted to apostasize

[thessalonian]

"God's grace does not pull me back towads the Roman Catholic Church. It constantly shows me the errors of Roman Catholicism in light of God's Holy Word and makes me thank God that He prompted me to leave her damnable apostasy behind. "

You mistake his grace for his allowing your heart to harden it seems as there is only one direction grace will pull a man and that is toward the fullness of the truth. I am often deeply disturbed by those who have left the faith and Hebrews 6. You know the verse. The one that Protestants say is only hypothetical. One who has rejected the grace of confession and Eucharist is not in good shape I fear. I will pray as well. Your obstinance in misrepresenting her teachings only is an indication to me that you you are not and perhaps never were open. You said earlier today that your family forced you in to confirmation and yet above you say "I defended her a year ago". Seems king of contradictory to me. Once again, I will pray however.

God bless

Edited December 28, 2004 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 12:44 AM'] It makes her reformed - having eliminated the errors inherent in Romanism and become pure again (aside from some liberal elements in the USA and Canada - Anglicanism worldwide is verymuch faithful to God's Word) [/quote]
Then you are okay with it's infant baptisms and that it believes in the real prescence in the Lord's supper as well as the priesthood? I do believe they even have some devotion to the blessed mother.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 28 2004, 01:07 AM'] Then you are okay with it's infant baptisms and that it believes in the real prescence in the Lord's supper as well as the priesthood? I do believe they even have some devotion to the blessed mother. [/quote]
Yes - I believe in infant baptism, the priesthood (though not the Roman conception) and real presence.

As for devotion to Mary...I'm not okay with. I have a high degre of respect for her as an example of Godliness, but I have no devotion to her.

[Ash Wednesday]

Ichthus, I am sorry to hear about your turmoils. However, I don't think it was ever the intentions of your extended Catholic family to cause a great crises with your own faith by encouraging your confirmation despite your doubts. Such things were not meant to be done out of malice but out of charity.

God is not done with you yet. Nor is he with any of us....

I hope that your faith, as the thread that ought to be holding the seams of life together, can bring you into a more peaceful harbor. My prayers.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 03:18 AM'] Yes - I believe in infant baptism, the priesthood (though not the Roman conception) and real presence.

As for devotion to Mary...I'm not okay with. I have a high degre of respect for her as an example of Godliness, but I have no devotion to her. [/quote]
You just called the Eucharist a 'piece of bread' on another thread.

You seem to contradict yourself quite a bit. Maybe you need a break and should come back after you have studied and figured out what you believe to be true.

The anglican church priesthood STEMS FROM the Roman Catholic "concept" of Priesthood.

Maybe you should actually learn a little about the anglican church and it's history from them before you set yourself up for failure again.

[url="http://www.anglican.org/church/ChurchHistory.html"]http://www.anglican.org/church/ChurchHistory.html[/url]
It began in the sixth century in England, [u][b]when Pope Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine to Britain to bring a more disciplined Apostolic succession to the Celtic Christians.[/b][/u] The Anglican Church evolved as part of the Roman church, but the Celtic influence was folded back into the Roman portion of the church in many ways, perhaps most notably by Charlemagne's tutor Aidan. The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries.


It appears again, because of your lack of study, you don't know what you're talking about in regards to Priesthood.


You can stop this madness by studying, if you studied enough, no one would be able to point out that you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm only trying to help you learn, it's going to take some effort on your part.

I want you to learn the truth.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]God's grace does not pull me back towads the Roman Catholic Church. It constantly shows me the errors of Roman Catholicism in light of God's Holy Word and makes me thank God that He prompted me to leave her damnable apostasy behind.

[/quote]

Well then it's not Grace, it is the Devil; the Devil always leads one away from the truth, The Church of Rome is the Holder of the Truth, so if you are being lead away it is by Satan or his minions and not by the Grace of God. I would venture to say that Satan is happier with you as a Protestant than as nothing, as nothing you might find your way back to mother Church, now you are just an apostate from the True Faith, doomed, as are all apostates.

Edited December 28, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 28 2004, 01:30 PM']
Well then it's not Grace, it is the Devil; the Devil always leads one away from the truth, The Church of Rome is the Holder of the Truth, so if you are being lead away it is by Satan or his minions and not by the Grace of God. I would venture to say that Satan is happier with you as a Protestant than as nothing, as nothing you might find your way back to mother Church, now you are just an apostate from the True Faith, doomed, as are all apostates. [/quote]
Ouch! This from a man who believes that his salvation comes from how many times he receives Holy Communion, as you said in another thread...

You yourself are an apostate, sir. You have abandoned the Holy Gospel for some works-based facsimile of Christianity.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 28 2004, 12:15 PM'] You just called the Eucharist a 'piece of bread' on another thread.
[/quote]
Which would be inconsistent, if I believed that [i]'real presence' is synonymous with 'transubstantiation'. I do not. [/i]

Christ is [i]really[/i], but not [i]substantially[/i], present, in the Eucharist.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 12:05 PM'] Which would be inconsistent, if I believed that [i]'real presence' is synonymous with 'transubstantiation'. I do not. [/i]

Christ is [i]really[/i], but not [i]substantially[/i], present, in the Eucharist. [/quote]
Byzantine Catholics, Latin Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox, all believe in a [i]substantial[/i] or [i]essential[/i] change of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. The only people who deny the true transformation of the elements are Protestants.

God bless,
Todd

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Ouch! This from a man who believes that his salvation comes from how many times he receives Holy Communion, as you said in another thread...
[/quote]

Wow you must need reading lessons, would you care to quote me on that, please link to it, so that I can see the context of the statement which you contend I have made.

[quote] You have abandoned the Holy Gospel for some works-based facsimile of Christianity. [/quote] well considering you deny the words of Christ preseved in the Gospel " this is my body" & " this is my blood" I wouldn't talk.

Edited December 28, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
12/28 - The Holy Innocents

[quote]I was thinking about how different people would explain this. I am Reformed, so I would say that God, in His mercy, ordained that I should persevere through this temptation so that I may be strengthened in my faith and kept unto eternal life.

A Roman Catholic would no doubt relegate some power to my own will, saying that I had enough willpower to resist the temptation to apostasize. Yet this latter is not the case. I was ready to give up. But honestly, I cannot imagine life apart from Christ, as said above. God's grace, not good intentions or a strong will, enabled me to persevere through that despair and come out with an intact faith. [/quote]

So God forced you to stay the course? Sounds like you don't have freedom in this instance - God is forcing you into Heaven? One shouldn't have to be forced to love God, one should be able to choose to love God.

[bookwyrm]

ICTHUS, I am sorry that your mother doesn't support your christianity - that must be horrible and I can't imagine what it would be like. But I still really don't understand what your problem is with the Catholic Church. You talk about 'damnable apostasy', but I'm not really sure what you mean by that. I don't think that even you know what you mean by that.
Also, I'm unsure where you get the idea that a Catholic would not give credit to God's grace, because that is totally untrue.
The people on this board are very learned - I am sure that if you were willing to listen with an open heart and mind that you would realize that you are wrong about the church.

I'm praying for you!

-Bookwyrm

Edited December 28, 2004 by bookwyrm

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 04:05 PM'] Which would be inconsistent, if I believed that [i]'real presence' is synonymous with 'transubstantiation'. I do not. [/i]

Christ is [i]really[/i], but not [i]substantially[/i], present, in the Eucharist. [/quote]
This is because you do not understand the terms.
If you believe in the real pressence then you must believe in transubstantiation. By saying you do not believe in it just goes to show that you do not know what it is.

Get Educated or go on making a fool of yourself:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp[/url]

Transubstantiation is the technical term used to describe what happens when the bread and wine used at Mass are turned into Christ’s actual body and blood. The belief that this occurs has been held from the earliest times. It stems from the sixth chapter of John’s Gospel, the eleventh chapter of 1 Corinthians, and the biblical accounts of the Last Supper. As centuries passed, theologians exercised their reason on the belief to understand more completely how such a thing could happen and what its happening would imply. It was seen that more precise terminology was needed to insure the belief’s integrity. The word "transubstantiation" was finally chosen because it eliminated certain unorthodox interpretations of the doctrine, and the term was formally defined at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. So the use of the technical term was new, but not the doctrine.

Simply put transubstantiation is nothing more than the point at which the bread becomes the flesh of Christ and the wine becomes the blood. If the Real Presence happened at 12:00 pm and we called it "noon", I think you would deny that noon even exists because it's a label coined by the Catholic Church.

Got some news for you... Trinity is a Catholic word also.

Funny in a very sad way how you avoid all debates that involve you showing history before 500 AD to back your claims.

Ignorance is not bliss.


I'm sorry about your mother acting that way also...

Here are some great logical arguements for the fact there is God...

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm"]http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm[/url]


God Bless
ironmonk

Edited December 29, 2004 by ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Dec 28 2004, 04:10 PM'] JMJ
12/28 - The Holy Innocents



So God forced you to stay the course? Sounds like you don't have freedom in this instance - God is forcing you into Heaven? One shouldn't have to be forced to love God, one should be able to choose to love God. [/quote]
Pio, the point I was trying to make is that the world, the flesh, and the devil, are a stronger offensive than I, a woefully sinful and stupid man, could ever hope to counter.

Praise God that the battle, for me, does not depend on my own strength or holiness, but on God's mercy in enabling my perseverance.

[Pio Nono]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 09:02 PM'] Pio, the point I was trying to make is that the world, the flesh, and the devil, are a stronger offensive than I, a woefully sinful and stupid man, could ever hope to counter.

Praise God that the battle, for me, does not depend on my own strength or holiness, but on God's mercy in enabling my perseverance. [/quote]
JMJ
12/29 - St. Thomas Becket

Yeah, but you didn't didn't address my statement - were you forced to keep believing or did you accept the grace to believe?