ironmonk Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Ok... about a year ago Icthus PM'd me about semipelagianism... along with a bunch of other "problems he had with the Church as a Catholic" I spent a lot of time on my replies, and I just learned that he also PM'd another person with the same PM... I am going back to my original statement that I do not believe he was ever Catholic. I think he tried posing himself as a Catholic to try to pull people out of the Church. It's really sad when someone who claims to be Christian has to break a commandment to try to win people over. If he believed he had the truth, why would he lie about being Catholic? It is sad how anti-Catholics miss the boat on what it means to be Christian. [b]I'm just curious how many other people he tried the semipelagianism attack with via PM.[/b] Pray for him. Also, thank him for helping push more people toward the Church.... St. Augustine said it best... "That the Catholic Faith may be confirmed even by the dissensions of the heretics." - St. Augustine; City of God; Book 18; Ch. 51 [quote] [b]Book 18; Ch. 51 That the Catholic Faith may be confirmed even by the dissensions of the heretics. [/b] But the devil, seeing the temples of the demons deserted, and the human race running to the name of the liberating Mediator, has moved the heretics under the Christian name to resist the Christian doctrine, as if they could be kept in the city of God indifferently without any correction, just as the city of confusion indifferently held the philosophers who were of diverse and adverse opinions. Those, therefore, in the Church of Christ who savor anything morbid and depraved, and, on being corrected that they may savor what is wholesome and right, contumaciously resist, and will not amend their pestiferous and deadly dogmas, but persist in defending them, become heretics, and, going without, are to be reckoned as enemies who serve for her discipline. For even thus they profit by their wickedness those true catholic members of Christ, since God makes a good use even of the wicked, and all things work together for good to them that love Him. For all the enemies of the Church, whatever error blinds or malice depraves them, exercise her patience if they receive the power to afflict her corporally; and if they only oppose her by wicked thought, they exercise her wisdom: but at the same time, if these enemies are loved, they exercise her benevolence, or even her beneficence, whether she deals with them by persuasive doctrine or by terrible discipline. And thus the devil, the prince of the impious city, when he stirs up his own vessels against the city of God that sojourns in this world, is permitted to do her no harm. For without doubt the divine providence procures for her both consolation through prosperity, that she may not be broken by adversity, and trial through adversity, that she may not be corrupted by prosperity; and thus each is tempered by the other, as we recognize in the Psalms that voice which arises from no other cause, "According to the multitude of my griefs in my heart, Thy consolations have delighted my soul." Hence also is that saying of the apostle, "Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation." For it is not to be thought that what the same teacher says can at any time fail, "Whoever will live piously in Christ shall suffer persecution." Because even when those who are without do not rage, and thus there seems to be, and really is, tranquillity, which brings very much consolation, especially to the weak, yet there are not wanting, yea, there are many within who by their abandoned manners torment the hearts of those who live piously, since by them the Christian and catholic name is blasphemed; and the dearer that name is to those who will live piously in Christ, the more do they grieve that through the wicked, who have a place within, it comes to be less loved than pious minds desire. The heretics themselves also, since they are thought to have the Christian name and sacraments, Scriptures, and profession, cause great grief in the hearts of the pious, both because many who wish to be Christians are compelled by their dissensions to hesitate, and many evil-speakers also find in them matter for blaspheming the Christian name, because they too are at any rate called Christians. By these and similar depraved manners and errors of men, those who will live piously in Christ suffer persecution, even when no one molests or vexes their body; for they suffer this persecution, not in their bodies, but in their hearts. Whence is that word, "According to the multitude of my griefs in my heart;" for he does not say, in my body. Yet, on the other hand, none of them can perish, because the immutable divine promises are thought of. And because the apostle says, "The Lord knoweth them that are His; for whom He did foreknow, He also predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of His Son," none of them can perish; therefore it follows in that psalm, "Thy consolations have delighted my soul." But that grief which arises in the hearts of the pious, who are persecuted by the manners of bad or false Christians, is profitable to the sufferers, because it proceeds from the charity in which they do not wish them either to perish or to hinder the salvation of others. Finally, great consolations grow out of their chastisement, which imbue the souls of the pious with a fecundity as great as the pains with which they were troubled concerning their own perdition. Thus in this world, in these evil days, not only from the time of the bodily presence of Christ and His apostles, but even from that of Abel, whom first his wicked brother slew because he was righteous, and thenceforth even to the end of this world, the Church has gone forward on pilgrimage amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 (edited) By the way, you left us hanging over here. Would you care to come back to the discussion so we can reach some conclusion or other: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25575&st=125"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25575&st=125[/url] Edited December 27, 2004 by popestpiusx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 27 2004, 04:33 PM'] By the way, you left us hanging over here. Would you care to come back to the discussion so we can reach some conclusion or other: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25575&st=125"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25575&st=125[/url] [/quote] Nothing more to say on that topic. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Ironmonk, you truly are an arrogant fool. But just for the record: I have been struggling with the Church of Rome for a very, very long time - much longer than before my Reformation. The issue I PM'd Ironmonk about was something which I was struggling with at the time - something which I never received a satisfactory answer to, as I tried to offer it to the person I was debating at the time, and it was defeated. For you to say that I was never a Roman Catholic and tried to lure people out of the Church is just plain stupid, and honestly, I am insulted. I tried to fit together the pieces of the puzzle of the Roman Catholic religion, but none of them fit together coherently. I was being asked to make massive leaps of exegetical logic which are unwarranted by the Scriptures (such as purgatory, praying to/for dead people). My conscience was constrained by the Truth. Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me. The decision to leave the Roman Catholic Church was not a decision I made lightly, but I did so out of obedience to the Truth taught by my Lord and Saviour. If Ironmonk continues to make baseless, absolutely untrue allegations against me, I will, in Jesus phrase, shake off the dust from my sandals, at this entire forum, and you will not see me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 27 2004, 04:08 PM'] Nothing more to say on that topic. God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] Well I know it. The thread has died the death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 05:55 PM'] Ironmonk, you truly are an arrogant fool. But just for the record: I have been struggling with the Church of Rome for a very, very long time - much longer than before my Reformation. The issue I PM'd Ironmonk about was something which I was struggling with at the time - something which I never received a satisfactory answer to, as I tried to offer it to the person I was debating at the time, and it was defeated. For you to say that I was never a Roman Catholic and tried to lure people out of the Church is just plain stupid, and honestly, I am insulted. I tried to fit together the pieces of the puzzle of the Roman Catholic religion, but none of them fit together coherently. I was being asked to make massive leaps of exegetical logic which are unwarranted by the Scriptures (such as purgatory, praying to/for dead people). My conscience was constrained by the Truth. Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me. The decision to leave the Roman Catholic Church was not a decision I made lightly, but I did so out of obedience to the Truth taught by my Lord and Saviour. If Ironmonk continues to make baseless, absolutely untrue allegations against me, I will, in Jesus phrase, shake off the dust from my sandals, at this entire forum, and you will not see me again. [/quote] Ah, the easy way to cover a lie... run from it. Not arrogant, and certainly not a fool. A fool asks the same question time and time again, after answers have been given time and time again. A fool will avoid hard questions because they can't find answers, the man with common sense keeps looking until he finds an answer that is in harmony with all other answers given. The only struggle I have seen with you and the Church is that you can't prove it wrong. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 This is done. ANY more threads like it will be closed as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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