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Omitting v. 25 from the Lectionary


ICTHUS

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[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Dec 24 2004, 04:51 PM'] JMJ
12/24 - Fourth Friday of Advent

Perhaps, sir, it's a side-issue to YOU, but for Catholics it is hardly so. The perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary has been upheld by the Church through the centuries; if she turned out not to be a virgin, then that calls into question the very authority that says she was.

No, any part of the deposit of faith is not a side-issue, for if the Church can be wrong about issues within the deposit of faith, then I cannot be sure that I'm believing what is True. [/quote]
Actually, it's a side issue for the Christian faith. Here's why.

Jesus and St. Paul give very simple criterion for being saved.

1. Confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord"
2. Believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead
3. Persevere in this faith until the end, bringing forth the fruits of good works and shunning sin.

Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor any other Biblical writer, for that matter, list believing in the perpetual virginity of Mary as a criterion for salvation. Nowhere in Scripture is it written "If you believe that Mary was perpetually a virgin, you shall be saved", nor does it say "Whoever believes in Mary's perpetual virginity is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in it stands condemned already because he has not believed in a doctrine infallibly proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church"

This is why it is a side issue.

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Coming to the lowest common denominator is no way to look at the Christian faith. Jesus was noted for consistently allowing disciples to turn away when they found teaching hard. He didn't try to plead with them to come back. And many times it had nothing to do with an act of intellectual trust in the God-man Jesus (what Protestants believe is the sum of saving faith).

He did mention something along the lines of...what was it...oh yes, bearing your cross or your could not be his disciple.

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EcceNovaFacioOmni

Has nothing to do with verse 25, but I find this work to be somewhat relevent to the discussion:

"The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary" - St. Jerome (Doctor of the Church)
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm[/url]

Edited by thedude
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[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 24 2004, 10:31 PM'] He didn't try to plead with them to come back. And many times it had nothing to do with an act of intellectual trust in the God-man Jesus (what Protestants believe is the sum of saving faith). [/quote]
That is an unfair caricaturization of Reformed belief, and you know it.

WCF Chapter XI, ii

[quote]II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; [b] yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.[/b]
[/quote]

At any rate, you never answered my objection. Where do Jesus or any of the Biblical writers say that believing in the Immaculate Conception (or any one of Roman Catholicisms extra-scriptural dogmas, for that matter) is necessary for salvation?

Edited by ICTHUS
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[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 24 2004, 09:28 PM'] Actually, it's a side issue for the Christian faith. Here's why.

Jesus and St. Paul give very simple criterion for being saved.

1. Confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord"
2. Believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead
3. Persevere in this faith until the end, bringing forth the fruits of good works and shunning sin.

Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor any other Biblical writer, for that matter, list believing in the perpetual virginity of Mary as a criterion for salvation. Nowhere in Scripture is it written "If you believe that Mary was perpetually a virgin, you shall be saved", nor does it say "Whoever believes in Mary's perpetual virginity is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in it stands condemned already because he has not believed in a doctrine infallibly proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church"

This is why it is a side issue. [/quote]
JMJ
12/25 - The Nativity of Our Lord

I still believe that it cannot be a side issue, not because of the issue itself, but because of the implications that would follow were it to be false. Here's my argument...

(1) The Church says that (x) is either true or false, but not both.
(2) The Church says that Mary is perpetually a virgin.
(3) Therefore, the Church cannot say that she is not perpetually a virgin without contradiction. {1,2}

---

I don't believe that you are presenting this argument, but here are the ramifications if Mary is not perpetually a virgin...

(1) If the Church is the fountain of all Truth and if she proposes (x) for belief, then she cannot be wrong with regards to (x).
(2) The Church proposes for belief the perpetual virginity of Mary.
(3) But Mary was not perpetually a virgin.
(4) Therefore, the Church is not the fountain of all Truth. {1,2,3}

[i][b]This[/b][/i] is why it is not a side-issue, but central to our faith. If Mary is not perpetually a virgin, then the Catholic Church is not the source of Truth.

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God transmits His truths through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is a truth implicitly stated in Scripture that has been passed down through Tradition.

For example, here are some quotes from the Early Church Fathers:

Athanasius

"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the [b]ever-virgin Mary[/b]" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the [b]holy ever-virgin Mary[/b] by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], [b]nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son[/b]" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

It is not a new "invention" of the Catholic Church.

Scripture may not say that believing in Mary's Perpetual Virginity is necessary, but Sacred Tradition does.

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[quote name='Mr. Cube' date='Dec 25 2004, 01:09 PM']For what it's worth, the lector here read verse 25 at midnight Mass.[/quote]
After reading the above post I decided to look at my copy of the Roman Rite Lectionary for Mass – just in order to verify the readings for the Vigil Mass – and I found that the reading of Matt. 1:1-25 (optional reading Matt. 1:18-25) is the norm. Anyone interested in looking at the lections for the Vigil Mass of Christmas may click on the link provided below:

[url="http://myweb.lmu.edu/fjust/Lectionary/1998USL-Christmas.htm"]Lectionary for Mass[/url]

Clearly, this appears to be a non-issue, because even the optional reading (Matt. 1:18-25) for the Vigil of Christmas includes verse 25.

God bless,
Todd

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[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 25 2004, 03:56 PM']Clearly, this appears to be a non-issue, because even the optional reading (Matt. 1:18-25) for the Vigil of Christmas includes verse 25.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
If ICTHUS is looking for real issues to discuss, Thomas Cranmer and Foxe's Book of Martyrs are replete with them--in a separate thread, of course.

Edited by james
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[quote name='Archangel' date='Dec 25 2004, 04:11 AM'] God transmits His truths through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is a truth implicitly stated in Scripture that has been passed down through Tradition.

For example, here are some quotes from the Early Church Fathers:

Athanasius

"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the [b]ever-virgin Mary[/b]" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the [b]holy ever-virgin Mary[/b] by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], [b]nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son[/b]" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

It is not a new "invention" of the Catholic Church.

Scripture may not say that believing in Mary's Perpetual Virginity is necessary, but Sacred Tradition does. [/quote]
Again, I neither affirm nor deny the perpetual virginity of Mary. However, because the Scriptures never present it as a life-or-death issue, neither do I.

Incidentally (not that it matters, because the Fathers are not inspired by God) none of those mens statements ever make believing in Mary's perpetual virginity an issue that will mean the difference between Heaven and Hell. They were quite adamant that denying things such as the Triunity of God would lead to Hell (with which I would agree), or the divinity of Christ, but never Mary's perpetual virginity.

Edited by ICTHUS
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[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 25 2004, 05:40 PM'] Again, I neither affirm nor deny the perpetual virginity of Mary. However, because the Scriptures never present it as a life-or-death issue, neither do I.

Incidentally (not that it matters, because the Fathers are not inspired by God) none of those mens statements ever make believing in Mary's perpetual virginity an issue that will mean the difference between Heaven and Hell. They were quite adamant that denying things such as the Triunity of God would lead to Hell (with which I would agree), or the divinity of Christ, but never Mary's perpetual virginity. [/quote]
The Church Fathers, unlike the Protestant Reformers, never subscribed to any form of theological nominalism; in other words, they understood the holistic nature of the Christian faith. Clearly, all of the truths of divine revelation, found both in scripture and tradition, interpenentrate each other, and so, the denial of one element of the Church's faith, destroys the whole.

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[quote]However, because the Scriptures never present it as a life-or-death issue, neither do I.[/quote]

Why, then, are you so concerned if verse 25 is read or not in Mass? If verse 25 is not read out loud, it doesn't make the truth of Mary's Perpetual Virginity suddenly false. :huh:

[quote]Incidentally (not that it matters, because the Fathers are not inspired by God) none of those mens statements ever make believing in Mary's perpetual virginity an issue that will mean the difference between Heaven and Hell. They were quite adamant that denying things such as the Triunity of God would lead to Hell (with which I would agree), or the divinity of Christ, but never Mary's perpetual virginity.[/quote]

It is ironic that you bring up the Trinity, when it, like Mary's Perpetual Virginity, is not explicity stated in Scripture. What we believe about the Trinity, we have learned through Sacred Tradition.

Regarding the Early Church Fathers, I was just showing that they believed in Mary's Perpetual Virginity hundreds of years agao just as Catholics still believe in it today.

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It should be mentioned yet again that the original assertion of the originator of this thread has been shown to be false, because the Roman Rite Lectionary for Mass does include the reading of Matthew 1:25 at the Christmas Vigil liturgy.

God bless,
Todd

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[quote name='Archangel' date='Dec 25 2004, 10:18 PM']


[/quote]

[quote]Why, then, are you so concerned if verse 25 is read or not in Mass? If verse 25 is not read out loud, it doesn't make the truth of Mary's Perpetual Virginity suddenly false.  :huh: [/quote] Because if you fail to include it, as the USCCB does on her online lectionary (http://www.uisccb.org) then it shows that you cannot account for it in your belief system. It shows that you are attempting to supress the Truth, just as you tried to supress the Bible by putting it in the index libororum prohibitorum. The Truth will always shine brighter than the errors of Roman Catholicism, though.

[quote]Regarding the Early Church Fathers, I was just showing that they believed in Mary's Perpetual Virginity hundreds of years agao just as Catholics still believe in it today.[/quote] And I was 'just' pointing out that the Fathers never said "those who don't believe in Mary's perpetual virginity are going to Hell"

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[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 25 2004, 10:10 PM'] The Church Fathers, unlike the Protestant Reformers, never subscribed to any form of theological nominalism; in other words, they understood the holistic nature of the Christian faith.  Clearly, all of the truths of divine revelation, found both in scripture and tradition, interpenentrate each other, and so, the denial of one element of the Church's faith, destroys the whole. [/quote]
No, it is not, in fact, clear that all truths are found in sacred scripture combined with 'sacred tradition'.

Tradition is only sacred insofar as it agrees with the written, inspired, and infallible Word of God. The Roman Catholic traditions of men such as purgatory, Mary's immaculate conception, transubstantiation, and a whole host of other blasphemies, are not. As such, no Christian man can be required to believe them under peril of damnation - in fact, I would say that he who does believe them runs the risk of affronting almighty God by engaging in superstitious idolatries and blasphemies, and his soul, if he fails to be disgusted by such aberrations, is probably not regenerate anyway.

Edited by ICTHUS
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