Can you imagine this!

[ICTHUS]

Also, you said that there is a place that is not Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven that unbaptised babies go to. Are you referring to Limbo? I thought this wasn't an official part of Catholic Church teaching?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 05:21 PM'] Also, you said that there is a place that is not Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven that unbaptised babies go to. Are you referring to Limbo? I thought this wasn't an official part of Catholic Church teaching? [/quote]
See other threads that have dealt with this issue.

BY the way, what part of the country do you live in? Anywhere close to VA?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 05:20 PM'] Ironmonk, I wish to take issue with something you said

"The Law written on their hearts will justify them"

How can anyone be justified by the Law, when Paul explicitly denies as much? [/quote]
The answer to your question lies in the distinction of Natural Law (that law on the hearts of all men) and Mosaic Law (that law knowable through revelation). There is also human law, which is also what Paul was referring to, and Church Law.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 06:20 PM'] Ironmonk, I wish to take issue with something you said

"The Law written on their hearts will justify them"

How can anyone be justified by the Law, when Paul explicitly denies as much? [/quote]
You should really study the bible more before trying to debate it.



[b]Romans 2:12 [/b]
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
[b]13 [/b]For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, [b][u]those who observe the law will be justified[/u][/b].
[b]14 [/b]For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
[b]15 [/b][b][u]They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts[/u][/b], while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts [u][b]accuse or even defend them [/b][/u]
[b]16 [/b]on the day when, according to my gospel, [u]God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.[/u]


If they do not know the law of baptism, then they will be judged without reference to it.

Everything that Christ commanded is law.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited December 27, 2004 by ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 27 2004, 04:28 PM'] See other threads that have dealt with this issue.

BY the way, what part of the country do you live in? Anywhere close to VA? [/quote]
Which part of which country? I live in Kingston, Ontario.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 27 2004, 05:11 PM']

Everything that Christ commanded is law.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
This is the Roman Catholic Church's problem. You confuse the Gospel with the Law. The law reveals sin, wrath, judgement, and brings fear of Hell. The Gospel brings grace, peace with God, compassion, and hope of Heaven.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 05:40 PM'] This is the Roman Catholic Church's problem. You confuse the Gospel with the Law. The law reveals sin, wrath, judgement, and brings fear of Hell. The Gospel brings grace, peace with God, compassion, and hope of Heaven. [/quote]
Let us remember the words of St. Paul who told us to, "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." [Galatians 6:2] Christ is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law, and by His grace all men are called to live a moral life in conformity with the will of God.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 27 2004, 08:23 PM'] Let us remember the words of St. Paul who told us to, "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." [Galatians 6:2] Christ is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law, and by His grace all men are called to live a moral life in conformity with the will of God. [/quote]
Of course, and I don't disagree. However, what I object to is that men are justified thereby. We are justified by grace, through faith, not by fulfilling the Law.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 06:30 PM'] Of course, and I don't disagree. However, what I object to is that men are justified thereby. We are justified by grace, through faith, not by fulfilling the Law. [/quote]
As I am sure you are aware, on the issue of the doctrine of justification, we disagree as to its nature and the relationship it bears with the other mysteries of the faith. Eastern Catholic theologians, like their Latin Catholic brethren, do not separate sanctification, or as it is known in the East, [i]theosis[/i], from the initial translation of man from a state of mortal sin to a state of deifying grace.

God bless,
Todd

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 09:40 PM'] This is the Roman Catholic Church's problem. You confuse the Gospel with the Law. The law reveals sin, wrath, judgement, and brings fear of Hell. The Gospel brings grace, peace with God, compassion, and hope of Heaven. [/quote]
Wrong.

A law is something we must do.
If God says we must do something... then it's Law.
Christ is God.
Christ commanded that we be baptized... therefore it is Law.

Christ is the New Law.

You need to read the Bible more, you do not know it well.... What you say does not add up.

Justification and Salvation are two different things. We are saved through Grace.

Faith and Works bestow Grace.

[b]St. Matt 16:27[/b] [color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.[/color]

[b]St. Luke 12:47 [/b][color=red]That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; [/color]
[b]48 [/b][color=red]and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. [/color]


[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b] So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[b]St. Matt 10:22 [/b] [color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. [/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b] [color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. [/color]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Don John of Austria]

Still no answer crusader1234

[ICTHUS]

Yes - it is a Law, and if we neglect it after we come to faith, or if parents neglect it for their children, they commit grave sin thereby.

However, Christ did not come to take away the 'hard law' of the Old Testament and give us the 'easy law' of the New Covenant. He came to FULFILL THE LAW, so that we may be saved by [b]grace. [/b]

Yes, we must obey the commandments of God. But we are [b]NOT JUSTIFIED THEREBY. [/b]

[quote]Faith and Works bestow Grace.[/quote] This is a Pelgaian blasphemy. We do not receive grace as a reward for faith and works. We receive grace so that we may have faith that works by love.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 27 2004, 08:41 PM'] As I am sure you are aware, on the issue of the doctrine of justification, we disagree as to its nature and the relationship it bears with the other mysteries of the faith. Eastern Catholic theologians, like their Latin Catholic brethren, do not separate sanctification, or as it is known in the East, [i]theosis[/i], from the initial translation of man from a state of mortal sin to a state of deifying grace.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
Shall we then, start another thread, ignoring all others (due to time constraints on me) discussing the nature of justification?

[Archangel]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 10:12 AM']Shall we then, start another thread, ignoring all others (due to time constraints on me) discussing the nature of justification?[/quote]
We know "faith alone" isn't going to do it.

James 2:24 - [b]See how a person is justified by works and [u]not by faith alone[/u].[/b]

[dairygirl4u2c]

just wonderin how this thread went from talking about war on abortion to talking about faith alone versus faith plus works.
..


also wondering why people post things so simply like
James 2:24 - See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

when protestants even believe that. As Luther said, faith alone is what saves, but faith is never alone. Yes, interpretations abound for both sides regarding this. Perhaps you should go to the early church. But then interpretations will probably still abound. It doesn't seem like easy answers are available to anyone. You can defend it but to think that you're right and no other interpretations are possible even if only theoretically seems shallow. I think most all of you could be helped by being more intellectually honest.