Offense

[thessalonian]

Some of late have said that street preaching and pamphlets and tracts offend many people and drive them further from the Church. So therefore we should not do these things because we don't want to move people further away.

I contend that if we are speaking in charity and love, we should not be too concerned with those who reject our teaching because if they are truly Christ's sheep they will hear his voice in our words and our actions.

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

John 10:26
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;


We must always be ready to give reason for the hope that is within us.

2 Timothy 4:2
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Reprove and rebuke it says. Offense? Likely, but with the intention of waking people up who are far from God.

If they hear you and take offense they are not of him:

Matthew 11:6
"And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me."

Thoughts? Comments?

Blessings


Thoughts?

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I like the St. Francis quote that goes something like: "Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

I think we tend to emphasize getting the word out to people and fail in showing the sincerity in Christ's message. It is through living our own lives the way Christ desires us to live that would be the best example for those who aren't Christian. I know I need work in this area, but that's why I'm a Christian.

[thessalonian]

That is why I starte out emphasizing charity and love.

I think we need a bit more context for the timothy verse.

2 Timothy 4:2-5
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Amen with regard to living the gospel being first and foremost. But I am afraid with the St. Francis quote that too many have used it as an excuse not to speak or to not look for opporunities to speak. (not that I am saying that you have done this) This I think is a mistake. The scriptures also tell us to be prudent in what we say. But it is not all nice either. Jesus called the pharasees "a brood of vipers". Now these words it is my belief were out of love for them. It is a hard message that they needed to hear. Prudence does not always rule out what might offend. This however makes living the Gospel ever more important so that you can check your pride at the door. That is hard! (Ouch, I know).

Blessings

Edited December 21, 2004 by thessalonian

[Quietfire]

Im not offended.
Rock on.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Yeah, sometimes people do hide behind that St. Francis quote. I think it emphasizes living the Gospel, which includes preaching (with words) the Gospel. In context with the verse from Timothy, I think that really describes a lot of what has happened in modern Christianity. People want to hear what they believe. Why have so many denominations come to accept contraception, homosexuality, and other immoral activities that recently as 100 years ago they all condemned? I think so many people are turned off by preaching because hearing the Good News makes people realize the bad news (sin) in their lives and they will turn away from this. Another reason why people get turned off is a perceived hypocrisy in that we have all broken the rules yet we are saying the rules should be followed.

The big thing is not wanting to hear sound doctrine that goes against what they do or what they want to do. I had a guy come by my house a couple weeks ago handing out circulars for a local Baptist church and he asked me where I went to church. After I told him, we got into a discussion and found out he was a former Catholic. He was telling me about how he would go to be at night and be afraid that sins he commits might condemn him to Hell. He said that once he 'accepted Jesus as his personal savior' (which I don't get because he's a savior to the whole world, not just my person) he felt a lot better. I didn't say this to him, but just because you feel better doesn't make a problem go away.

If you want a good way of finding out just how much people don't like hearing the truth on an issue, just get an average group of married people together at church and have a discussion about birth control. You will be surprised (or really, maybe not) how many people try to justify it and accept arguments - no matter how weak or wrong they are - in favor of use of birth control because they are on birth control.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 21 2004, 04:53 PM'] Some of late have said that street preaching and pamphlets and tracts offend many people and drive them further from the Church. So therefore we should not do these things because we don't want to move people further away.

I contend that if we are speaking in charity and love, we should not be too concerned with those who reject our teaching because if they are truly Christ's sheep they will hear his voice in our words and our actions.

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

John 10:26
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;


We must always be ready to give reason for the hope that is within us.

2 Timothy 4:2
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Reprove and rebuke it says. Offense? Likely, but with the intention of waking people up who are far from God.

If they hear you and take offense they are not of him:

Matthew 11:6
"And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me."

Thoughts? Comments?

Blessings


Thoughts? [/quote]
I'm not entirely sure about the subject; this is the first time I've thought about it that way (whether street preaching could drive people away from the Church), but your argument sounds a bit too much like pre-destination to me. You may say that they are not nessisarily "pre-destined" to be one of the flock, they chose not to be, but I think it's wrong to say that anyone cannot convert and have salvation. They may not be in a state susceptible to conversion right now, but who's to say that in a year (or 50 years, for that matter) they may have been susceptible to conversion if they hadn't been pressured earlier in life and developed bad ideas and feelings about the Church, or even religion in general. I think we should preach by example, and when (and if) people get curious about it they can find someone to talk to. Now, that's not to say that you can't talk to friends about it and be there to answer (or find the answer, if you don't know it) any questions they may have about the Church. I do that a lot in my life, and I've been witness to two conversions of my friends. I'm not saying that I am the reason they converted or anything, God was the reason, and their mother is a devout Catholic (it's a long story, but they weren't raised Catholic) I'm sure she was a big influence on them. I could be wrong, like I said this is honestly the first time I've thought about it. That's just my initial thoughts.

Now that I've given it some thought, though, I think that as long as the street preaching's done with charity and love, it probably wouldn't turn people away, even if they aren't currently in a position to be open to conversion. It's the loud, obnoxious street preaching (and even singing) that I think could possibly keep people from considering it later in life. I still think though, that being open and charitable with people you already know is going to have a better effect.

[thessalonian]

I agree with all but in the first part of the follwing sentence from your post.

"but your argument sounds a bit too much like pre-destination to me. You may say that they are not nessisarily "pre-destined" to be one of the flock, they chose not to be, but I think it's wrong to say that anyone cannot convert and have salvation. "

Actually the Church does in fact teach predestination. It however in the context of the Church is not contrary to free will and personal responsibility. God gives all men the grace for eternal life. The sun shines on the good and the bad. He gives us the grace to make an act of the will for him and keeps them on the path by his grace, yet not intruding on our free will (which is actually not free when we are in the bondage of sin). Free-will is actually defined as "the ability to do good" as I think it is Augustine says. God gives the grace to go to heaven, yet some perish by rejection of his grace. Which brings us to the second point of your question. There is no predestination to hell. Some will go there and God knows who they are of course, but it is not for lack of his grace that they go there.

One other thing with regard to conversions. I think you spoke well with regard to those you helped in to the Church. We are but one voice that God sends to people. There are many other means of his actual grace that he sends to move people toward him. It is pride to say that we converted someone. Paul said "I planted, Apollos watered, but the Lord made it grow". We plant a seed. It may not grow for years but we have to plant it.

I have told this before. My father had a field that did not have sweet clover on it as long as he owned it. One year the conditions were right and the whole field came up in sweet clover. The neighbors said it had not had sweet clover on it for more than 20 years but the seeds lay dormant until the time was right. We must plant the seeds and let God take care of the rest.

God bless

[mulls]

i really hate that st. francis quote.

it's OBVIOUS that our lives should relfect the message of the gospel. that goes without saying. it's a basic principle.

as for getting the message across, it is necessary to use words. when people wonder why we live the way we live, and what makes us different from the world, we have to use our words to TELL THEM!

(evangelism gets me fired up!)

[littleflower+JMJ]

you need to read upon st. francis...sounds like you dont know him!

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='mulls' date='Dec 21 2004, 07:23 PM'] i really hate that st. francis quote.

it's OBVIOUS that our lives should relfect the message of the gospel. that goes without saying. it's a basic principle.

as for getting the message across, it is necessary to use words. when people wonder why we live the way we live, and what makes us different from the world, we have to use our words to TELL THEM! [/quote]
i very much disagree, my family has a very strong yet quiet faith. We rarely speak directly to people about our faith outside of personal settings, yet there are many people who have attributed my family as the reason they converted.

i know of 8 people who have directly attributed their conversion to my family, but i have reason to believe that we've been instrumental in the conversion of more than that. In a few cases my family members have directly talked to the people about The Church, but usually this is only after the person sees the peace we have. In a few cases, the people have only told us that we converted them after they'd completely rejoined The Church. One of those was a former seminarian who'd left The Church.

I think words are often unnecessary. If people see that you have a peace and love that they don't, they will come to you. When they *do* come to you, they're *very* open to the Gospel. Until then you run the risk of pushing them away.

Peace,
Joe

[drewmeister2]

That is neat to hear, Joe!

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='drewmeister2' date='Dec 21 2004, 07:48 PM']That is neat to hear, Joe!  [/quote]
thanks i think it's important that we do hear things like this every now and then . . . it helps keep us from despairing that we aren't doing enough. (Although we could certainly always do more . . .)

[cooltuba]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 21 2004, 07:17 PM'] "but your argument sounds a bit too much like pre-destination to me. You may say that they are not nessisarily "pre-destined" to be one of the flock, they chose not to be, but I think it's wrong to say that anyone cannot convert and have salvation. "

Actually the Church does in fact teach predestination. It however in the context of the Church is not contrary to free will and personal responsibility. God gives all men the grace for eternal life. The sun shines on the good and the bad. He gives us the grace to make an act of the will for him and keeps them on the path by his grace, yet not intruding on our free will (which is actually not free when we are in the bondage of sin). Free-will is actually defined as "the ability to do good" as I think it is Augustine says. God gives the grace to go to heaven, yet some perish by rejection of his grace. Which brings us to the second point of your question. There is no predestination to hell. Some will go there and God knows who they are of course, but it is not for lack of his grace that they go there.

One other thing with regard to conversions. I think you spoke well with regard to those you helped in to the Church. We are but one voice that God sends to people. There are many other means of his actual grace that he sends to move people toward him. It is pride to say that we converted someone. Paul said "I planted, Apollos watered, but the Lord made it grow". We plant a seed. It may not grow for years but we have to plant it.
[/quote]
Paragraph 1:

The Church may use the term "pre-destination" but what she means by it and the protestant belief that some are "pre-destined" by God to go to hell is what I was referring to.

Paragraph 2:
Thanks. God is always the reason for a true conversion. The best we can hope to do is be there for Him to use as a tool. I can't tell you how many Priests told me that they've had many people who have come to them after years of Priesthood and tell them that a homily or comment they didn't even remember making led them to the Church; and thier message was that God uses us to do His work, and we should lead a good life so that we will be open to His will. Good times.

Peace,

Tim

[thessalonian]

Joe,

Thanks for your post. It was an excellent addition to my thread. The words of St. Francis are very important. Balance is the only thing I am asking for. Twice yesterday I heard people say that noone would speak to them about the Catholic Church at work. I think this is where the pendulum is at and that your the exceptoin to the rule with Catholics.

God bless

[ironmonk]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Dec 21 2004, 07:21 PM'] I like the St. Francis quote that goes something like: "Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
[/quote]
"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."




This is telling people to live their faith, not to keep their mouth shut, nothing more than that.

Notice the word "necessary"?

"If necessary..."

Yes, it is necessary to tell the people the good news.

There are over 130 verses that contain the word "preach"... here are a few...

St. Francis knew Christ and His Gospel... do you really think that St. Francis meant not to preach?

[b]Matthew 11:1[/b]
And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he passed from thence, to teach and preach in their cities.
[b]5[/b]The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead rise again, the poor have the gospel preached to them.


[b]Matthew 24:14[/b]
And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.


[b]Luke 9:2[/b]
And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
[b]6[/b]And going out, they went about through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.


[b]Luke 24:47[/b]
And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


[b]Acts 10:42[/b]
And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was appointed by God, to be judge of the living and of the dead.

[b]Acts 15:35[/b]
And Paul and Barnabas continued at Antioch, teaching and preaching, with many others, the word of the Lord.




God Bless,
ironmonk