aborted babies and salvation

[cooltuba]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Dec 21 2004, 09:27 PM'] i would like to agree with you, but the good thief had an option that might not be available to the unborn: baptism by desire. if St. Dismas (the good thief) had the opportunity, we know he would have been baptized. The same is not true for the unborn. We *hope* they'd have been baptized, but hope unfortunately proves little.

I *do* agree that it doesn't seem to follow with the NC to say that the unborn must be baptized, but that's where baptism by desire comes in.

Peace,
Joe [/quote]
Is a fetus even capable of desire? I think that this is a situation that defies all examples we can think of, and I trust in the Infinite Mercy of God that the most innocent among us will not suffer eternal damnation.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='drewmeister2' date='Dec 21 2004, 09:35 PM'] I also remember reading somewhere that Baptism by blood can come into play here. [/quote]
yes, i've heard that too, but i don't really buy that: i think that requires that a person die *for* The Faith, not just because of some indescribably horrific way they died.

Peace,
Joe

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 21 2004, 09:40 PM'] Is a fetus even capable of desire? I think that this is a situation that defies all examples we can think of, and I trust in the Infinite Mercy of God that the most innocent among us will not suffer eternal damnation. [/quote]
agreed. God will be just, even when we're not sure how it's possible to be fair.

[Don John of Austria]

Okay I don't see how this is such a serious problem, First about hte Good theif Christ Had not yet died , the resurection had not yet occured, the gates of heaven where not yet open, and Baptism was therefore not yet neccessary for salvation. But he Above Truth has been Dogmaticly, infallably stated. "For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven." You must be baptised in order to have the beatific vision, Baptism of Blood is the baptism of martyrdom, Baptism of Desire is the baptism of the Catachumen who dies before he is baptised, niehter of these are suitable for the unborn. Now if you are not a Catholic you are free to believe that the Aborted Go to heaven, but if you are a Catholic You are obliged to believe that Baptism is neccessary for salvation.

[quote] dont get how a christian filled with love would think like that ???
[/quote]


I'll make it very simple I don't believe it is loving to tell people that Baptism is not needed to be saved when it is. Morethan that I think that it is this False belief that " the poor innocent babies couldn't possibly burn, they must go to heaven" is a lie we tell our selve to excuse our lack of action involveing abortion, it helps us live with ourselves knowing that the unborn are murdered in our own cities, how could we live with ourselves if all those babies go to hell. How much easier it is to go to work "[i]knowing[/i]" that they must go to heaven. That is not loveing, that like all lies is monsterous; at best the babies still tainted by original sin go to some sort of Limbo, the Cannot enjoy the Beatific vision, And I pray they do not burn, but if those are the only to options, then Hell is the only option left to us. I sincerly pray that there is a Limbo but that is the best I can hope for and still call myself orthodox; it makes abortion seem even more horrible doesn't it.