Ash Wednesday Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Actually, I'd be checking off that last blank choice, it is just as well it's there, because I don't have the answer and don't feel comfortable speculating at the moment. It's a good thing that the pope is advocating a more intensive study in this matter. Perhaps some things God will keep a mystery so that we don't lazily assume or joylessly despair one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 LoL, you're the second one with that idea to have posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 21 2004, 04:19 AM'] LoL, you're the second one with that idea to have posted here. [/quote] ...urk! I missed it.... sorry. I should get some sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 LoL, don't worry about it. It's late!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Fixed it. :thumb: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 LoL, lucky you, you don't have "edited..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Dec 21 2004, 03:00 AM'] but there is no "right answer" and to assert one where there is none is to contradict the Magisterium. [/quote] I would not go that far. There is a right answer, ontologically speaking. We can assert speculations as solutions, even as true solutions, to various theological problems. Aquinas certainly did this. So did nearly every theologian or saint that tried to tackle these problems. As long as you stay within legal orthodoxy there is no problem. Some arguments, though legally orthodox, may still be quite untenable and so another theologian may propose a different solution. These solutions must always have divinely revealed truth as their foundation, and may never contradict it, either explicitly or in that which is reasonably deduced from the proposition. We can (and hopefully would) assert these propositions as true, though certainly leaving the final judgment on the matter to the Church. In so doing, we do not contradict the Magisterium, but instead, assist it by hashing out the various arguments. It is not uncommon for Her to rely on these arguments, and the theologians who made them, to assess the question thoroughly and then, if she so chooses, to make a judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) [quote]your saying who is going to go to hell[/quote] Delivery boy I never said who goes to heaven and who goes to hell only what is required to go to Heaven. What gives me the Authority to say that, well Here this is from the Council of Trent, it is Dogmatic and Infallable read it, accept it: [quote]. If anyone denies that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, are to be baptized, even though they be born of baptized parents, or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins,[14] but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam which must be expiated by the laver of regeneration for the attainment of eternal life, whence it follows that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins is to be understood not as true but as false, let him be anathema, for what the Apostle has said, by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned,[15] is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church has everywhere and always understood it. [color=red]For in virtue of this rule of faith handed down from the apostles, even infants who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this reason truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that in them what they contracted by generation may be washed away by regeneration.[16] For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.[[/color]17] [/quote] FiZzGiG--[quote]How can one be baptized within the womb? Is that possible? [/quote] yes it is possible and use to be done regularly when there was a crisis during birth. [quote] I can't see how God can condemn someone to hell who never even had the chance to be baptized.[/quote] What you can see shouldn't matter God can do what ever He wills, and whatever He does is Good. Edited December 21, 2004 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 Delivery Boy [quote]Babies that die young are angels my friend.[/quote] I hope you mean this metaphoricly, All the Angels there ever where or ever will be where created before Man, no one who dies becomes an angel, no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Don John I love you brother and respect you as a catholic brother I have alot to learn in my faith and im sorry the way I sound over the internet Im not trying to be harsh but it bothers me that you entertain the idea that babies would be sent to hell...........You'll never convince me and you'll never convince alot'a people......picture this........a mother is pregnent, she is driveing on the interstate, a semi crosses over into her lane head on...boom...she's dead.....with your logic....your sayen that God could send this unborn infant to hell, becuz it was not baptised.....do you know how ridicolous this sounds ?? God wouldnt do that my friend.......now........if God could have pity on this unborn infant killed in a car accident before even being born........why would not God have pity on an unborn infant killed becuz ITS OWN MOTHER deicided to murder it before even being born???? you can tell me all the church documents you want...and thats cool....but for me....the bible is my decideing factor.....thats all I need........peace and love to you brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 21 2004, 02:58 PM'] What you can see shouldn't matter God can do what ever He wills, and whatever He does is Good. [/quote] and this quote bothers me its like your saying "well if God wants to send them to hell he will !!!!! " you know what im sayen ?? why would you even want to think like that ??? why would you even want to argue that infants go to hell ??? I dont get how a christian filled with love would think like that ??? Think how you make someone feel who lost a child at childbirth Your condeming their son or daughter to hell practially..... I dont get why you would wanna do that man..... Your telling that person "Well God will send them to hell if he wants !!! " my friend.... God could make Earth spin off of its axis right now and crash into the sun.......God can do anything.....Everything God does is outta love....God is not unfair.......Your shedding God in a real unfair light, when you try to argue that infants would be condemed to hell.........Get your bible out, it doesnt support you..........You dont think God could water baptize a infant ???? You put limitions on God and its jus nonsence..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 21 2004, 03:01 PM'] Delivery Boy I hope you mean this metaphoricly, All the Angels there ever where or ever will be where created before Man, no one who dies becomes an angel, no one. [/quote] I mean it in the sence, they are looked as precious in the eyes of God Jesus said "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BELONGS TO THESE LITTLE ONES " your not accepting the faith as a child.......remember Jesus said to accept the faith as a child.......God loves his creation so much....And God is filled with so much mercy, that he sent his son to be beaten on a cross and die for our sins....That included all of us and esspially those who were murdered in the womb.......I put my soul on this...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooltuba Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Babtism is not nessesary for salvation. We know that the theif crucified with Christ is in heaven, and he was not babtized. God is not bound by rules; we cling to rules sometimes and forget how loving and merciful our God is, and it leads to the preposterous (preposterous at least to me) notion that the most innocent among us (babies that are not even given the chance to make it out of the womb) us could possibly go to hell. It's not even a question for me; I have no doubt that aborted babies go to Heaven. I don't know what the Church teaches on this, but I doubt that it teaches that aborted babies are doomed to an eternity in hell. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think applying the "You must be babtized in order to have salvation" rule in the case of aborted babies is not in line with the New Covenant (Jesus). Peace, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagiDragon Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 [quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 21 2004, 09:14 PM']Babtism is not nessesary for salvation. We know that the theif crucified with Christ is in heaven, and he was not babtized. God is not bound by rules; we cling to rules sometimes and forget how loving and merciful our God is, and it leads to the preposterous (preposterous at least to me) notion that the most innocent among us (babies that are not even given the chance to make it out of the womb) us could possibly go to hell. It's not even a question for me; I have no doubt that aborted babies go to Heaven. I don't know what the Church teaches on this, but I doubt that it teaches that aborted babies are doomed to an eternity in hell. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think applying the "You must be babtized in order to have salvation" rule in the case of aborted babies is not in line with the New Covenant (Jesus). Peace, Tim[/quote] i would like to agree with you, but the good thief had an option that might not be available to the unborn: baptism by desire. if St. Dismas (the good thief) had the opportunity, we know he would have been baptized. The same is not true for the unborn. We *hope* they'd have been baptized, but hope unfortunately proves little. I *do* agree that it doesn't seem to follow with the NC to say that the unborn must be baptized, but that's where baptism by desire comes in. Peace, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewmeister2 Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 I also remember reading somewhere that Baptism by blood can come into play here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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