aborted babies and salvation

[Guest]

romans 9-14

"I WILL SHOW MERCY TO WHOM I WILL,
I WILL TAKE PITY ON WHOM I WILL

SO IT DEPENDS NOT UPON A PERSONS WILL OR EXERTION, BUT UPON GOD, WHO SHOWS MERCY...............

[XIX]

[quote]And agian He, has told us HOW HE CHOOSES[/quote]

Then why does the Church specifically tell us that God has chosen not to reveal to us what happens to the souls of the unborn?

[Apotheoun]

Some of the comments being made in this thread border on the [i]apokatastasis[/i] heresy, that is, on the heresy of universalism, which was condemned by the Church long ago. The most that can be said, based on what God has revealed in scripture and tradition, is that: (1) only those who die in a state of deifying grace can enter into the beatific vision, and (2) anyone who is in a state of original sin, but who has never committed any actual sins, will not be punished with the pains of damnation in hell. That is all that can be said, and to go further than that is to exceed what has been revealed.

God bless,
Todd

[XIX]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 20 2004, 09:54 PM'] Some of the comments being made in this thread border on the [i]apokatastasis[/i] heresy, that is, on the heresy of universalism, which was condemned by the Church long ago. The most that can be said, based on what God has revealed in scripture and tradition, is that: (1) only those who die in a state of deifying grace can enter into the beatific vision, and (2) anyone who is in a state of original sin, but who has never committed any actual sins, will not be punished with the pains of damnation in hell. That is all that can be said, and to go further than that is to exceed what has been revealed.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
So wait, does that mean that limbo is doctrinally the worst-case scenenrio? Or just theoretically? Or am I just jumping to conclusions?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='XIX' date='Dec 20 2004, 08:04 PM'] So wait, does that mean that limbo is doctrinally the worst-case scenenrio?  Or just theoretically?  Or am I just jumping to conclusions? [/quote]
Worst case scenario? I'm not sure I know what you mean, but to lack the vision of God is certainly not something anyone should be hoping for.

God bless,
Todd

[conservativecatholic]

In no way possible would God condemn an innocent child to hell if he or she was killed by the free will of his parents. Limbo is the destination for deceased unbaptized children- not hell.

[XIX]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 20 2004, 10:07 PM'] Worst case scenario? I'm not sure I know what you mean, but to lack the vision of God is certainly not something anyone should be hoping for.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
Oh Iknowknowknow...but, I'm just saying that there is no suffering in limbo, but there is natural happiness. Is it possible that these infants do suffer, and/or lack even natural happiness?

What exactly is natural happiness, by the way?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='XIX' date='Dec 20 2004, 08:17 PM'] Oh Iknowknowknow...but, I'm just saying that there is no suffering in limbo, but there is natural happiness.  Is it possible that these infants do suffer, and/or lack even natural happiness?

What exactly is natural happiness, by the way? [/quote]
Those babies who die in a state of original sin but without any actual sins will not suffer, but as I said earlier in this thread, as an Eastern Catholic I don't accept the Scholastic distinction between natural and supernatural happiness. All of those Scholastic concepts are pure speculation and no one has to accept them.

God bless,
Todd

[jmjtina]

[quote]Para. 1261 CCC: As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them" (Mk 10:14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4), allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. [/quote]

My question is, how do we interpret the above? That to me is hope that they can make it to heaven. That is where my hope lies, the hope that there is a way for salvation for the aborted, those who die in the womb naturally, etc. If not, God's Will be done.

Pax.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Dec 20 2004, 09:25 PM']
My question is, how do we interpret the above? That to me is hope that they can make it to heaven. That is where my hope lies, the hope that there is a way for salvation for the aborted, those who die in the womb naturally, etc. If not, God's Will be done.

Pax. [/quote]
We can hope for many things, but since there is nothing in divine revelation that tells us the fate of unbaptized children, it is dangerous to speculate on the topic. Such speculation could lead to either Pelagian ideas about the ability of man to come to God by the power of nature alone, or could lead to a form of universalism, and of course both of these heresies were condemned long ago and must be avoided. It is far better to simply accept that we cannot answer this question in a definitive way.

God bless,
Todd

[FiZzGiG]

Sorry to interupt this huge discussion! But I have a question:

Is it possible that a miscarried or aborted baby could go to Purgatory to be cleansed of sin, that is, original sin? Or can that ONLY be cleansed through Baptism in the Sacraments on earth?
Could a child receive this Baptism, this purging of original sin, in Purgatory?


I don't know much of this deep theology, so this could be a negative option. But I better know if it's possible or not, because for all I know, this belief could mean I'm in material heresy!

Just a question that needs clearing up.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Dec 20 2004, 10:30 PM'] Sorry to interupt this huge discussion! But I have a question:

Is it possible that a miscarried or aborted baby could go to Purgatory to be cleansed of sin, that is, original sin? Or can that ONLY be cleansed through Baptism in the Sacraments on earth?
Could a child receive this Baptism, this purging of original sin, in Purgatory?


I don't know much of this deep theology, so this could be a negative option. But I better know if it's possible or not, because for all I know, this belief could mean I'm in material heresy!

Just a question that needs clearing up. [/quote]
In order to go to purgatory one must be in a state of deifying (i.e., sanctifying) grace. Purgatory removes venial, not mortal sin. Just to clarify matters, if one is in a state of original sin, it follows that they are in a state of mortal sin, i.e., they are supernaturally dead.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Aluigi]

purgatory is for tne damage caused by forgiven mortal sins and for forgiveness of actual venial sins that remain. I do not think there is anything to support the idea that it is for original sin, as it would be somewhat of a stairway towards heaven, an ascending path upwards towards heaven. a soul weighed down by Adam's sin does not ascend in the death caused by Adam. He would not necessarily descend without actual sin if God so willed, but of course I'm now going into the limbo idea (which i see as the most logical possibility, and hope for a release of the souls from limbo at the end of time) Anyway, I don't see how purgatory would be applied to original sin

[FiZzGiG]

Thanks guys!! I feel like someone pumped Catholic knowledge into my head. WOO!


I'm thinking I'm liking the limbo idea as well. I can't see how God can condemn someone to hell who never even had the chance to be baptized. How can one be baptized within the womb? Is that possible?

If so, then I suppose there are more objections. But the idea that an innocent child being damned to hell is repulsive to me.

Since, according to the comments on this thread, there is no specific revelation on the subject, I'll let myself be open to other possiblities as well, I suppose.

Although it may turn out to not be true, I like to think that through God's infinite mercy, these miscarried or aborted babies don't spend eternity in hell.

We can only pray!

[Guest JeffCR07]

I have to agree with Todd in this discussion.

We can [i]hope[/i] that God, in His Mercy, would give to children the gift of Baptism, but we cannot say anything more than this. We can [i]hope[/i] that God, in His Mercy, would deliver children unto a state of nonsuffering, despite their seperation from Him, but we cannot say anything more.

When engaging in [i]any[/i] form of speculative theology, the first and most important thig is to make absolutely sure that [i]nothing[/i] of what is being speculated runs contrary to the teachings of the Magisterium, Most Holy Tradition, and the Holy Scriptures.

Once all heresy has been avoided, then speculation is permissible, but there is no "right answer" and to assert one where there is none is to contradict the Magisterium.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff