aborted babies and salvation

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 19 2004, 10:30 PM'][quote name='qfnol31 @ Dec 19 2004' date=' 10:54 AM']This may be really far out, but is it possible for Jesus to appear to the child just before death? It has the full capacity for rationality from the moment of conception...[/quote]
[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 19 2004, 11:56 AM']Such speculation goes beyond anything that has been revealed.[/quote]
Does it counter anything revealed?[/quote]
What has been revealed is this: (1) to enter into the beatific vision a person must be in a state of deifying (i.e., sanctifying) grace, and (2) no one who has not intentionally committed actual sins will be punished with the punishment of the damned. Anything beyond this is pure speculation and runs the risk of falling into the [i]apokatastasis[/i] (universalism) heresy. Proposing concepts that allow for a person who died in a state of original sin, that is, without the grace of baptism, or the desire thereof, to enter into the beatific vision of the uncreated Light is dangerous, because it has no foundation at all in the deposit of divine revelation. Thus, it is safest to stick to the two doctrinal propositions given above, since they express the constant faith of the Church on this topic.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 20 2004, 01:09 PM'] that's why i said i was "done" with him, meant to end the bickering.


i think temporary limbo can hold water. it is where they sit in a state of natural hapiness until Christ comes again as he did to those in "limbo" at his first coming. they were not being purified either, they were waiting until the messiah came and let them into heaven. the same would happen, these souls wait in limbo until the Messiah comes again and ties up all loose ends. [/quote]
It makes sense for pre-Christian times. I don't see how it can apply after the establishment of the Church. The patriarchs waited for Christ to come and open the gates of heaven in order to overcome the effects of original sin. But they had done everything necessary on their part to achieve salvation. They did not lack the normal means of achieving that (circumcision, etc.). But the limbus infantium is not a place of awaiting the opening of the gates for those who have done everything necessary on their part. In fact, it is just the opposite. The souls in limbus infantium are those who have NOT fulfilled everything humanly necessary to take advantage of the already opened gates of heaven. The difference is quite stark. In one case, the souls are those who await salvation, and have a certain claim to it. In the other, the souls are those who have no claim to salvation, for they have not fulfilled any of the requirements necessary for it. Instead of fulfilling his covenant as in the limbus patrem, your theory for the emptying of limbus infantium would require him to go outside the new covenant, even ignoring it. That's the difference as I see it. What am I missing?

[popestpiusx]

Temporary hijack:
Al, can you post a link to your phish outreach site. I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

Return to regularly scheduled discussion!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 20 2004, 11:35 AM'] Temporary hijack:
Al, can you post a link to your phish outreach site. I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

Return to regularly scheduled discussion! [/quote]
Here's a link to Aluigi's original post on that topic:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19934&view=findpost&p=350142"]Phish Outreach Program[/url]

[popestpiusx]

As one who reeks of phish, I thank you.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 20 2004, 11:23 AM']
[quote]Does it counter anything revealed?[/quote]
What has been revealed is this: (1) to enter into the beatific vision a person must be in a state of deifying (i.e., sanctifying) grace, and (2) no one who has not intentionally committed actual sins will be punished with the punishment of the damned. Anything beyond this is pure speculation and runs the risk of falling into the [i]apokatastasis[/i] (universalism) heresy. Proposing concepts that allow for a person who died in a state of original sin, that is, without the grace of baptism, or the desire thereof, to enter into the beatific vision of the uncreated Light is dangerous, because it has no foundation at all in the deposit of divine revelation. Thus, it is safest to stick to the two doctrinal propositions given above, since they express the constant faith of the Church on this topic. [/quote]LoL, okay. It's not that I believe those, I was just curious if it is even [i]possible[/i]. Thanx Todd.

Edited December 20, 2004 by qfnol31

[Guest]

what isnt clear about this

"GOD SAVES WHO HE CHOOZES AND HAS MERCY ON WHO HE WILLS "

Edited December 20, 2004 by Guest

[popestpiusx]

Nice rebuttal. Short, to the point, ignore everyything everyone has said.

[Guest]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 20 2004, 05:05 PM'] Nice rebuttal. Short, to the point, ignore everyything everyone has said. [/quote]
lol sorry

I read over what was said and I think there valid points
but
I also think sometimes issues are made to complicated
Gods word is sharp as a sword.....It makes itself very clear
A little child could understand it
And I think the scripture I pointed out deals with this issue very clearly
I mean, why make it more complicated then it is
My point is clearly what God says....."He will have mercy on whoever he choozes"
and that includes a murdered little precioius baby..........

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]My point is clearly what God says....."He will have mercy on whoever he choozes"
[/quote]

Yes, and He has revealed how He does it for those He Chooses, He does it through Baptism and the Sacraments.

[Guest]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 20 2004, 07:59 PM']
Yes, and  He  has revealed how He does it for those He Chooses, He does it through Baptism and the Sacraments. [/quote]
its funny how you put God in a box

so I guess I should just call you "God"

since your telling me God cant save outside of the sacraments.......

Its so sickening to think, that someone would argue that a innocent child, would be sent to hell becuz they were "murdered" before they even had a chance to breath the air.......boy, if this is the God we have, then i mise well give up now.........

But it isnt.......we have a loveing God, a fair God, A God that desires for everyone to be saved........esspecialy innocent murdered babies !

and its funny how God talks about the unbelievers and how they are held accountable for what they do, since the law is written in their heart......

Again, God will save WHOEVER HE CHOOZES.........not who you say he choozes, but whoever HE CHOOZES....

Edited December 21, 2004 by Guest

[Don John of Austria]

And agian He, has told us HOW HE CHOOSES, He has given us outward signs which atually deliever His sanctifying Grace-- They are called Sacraments, that is the only way that He has reveled that anyone at all is saved. If that offends you tough tootles, He is God, He is tha Same God that ordered the Isrealites to slauhter ALL the people in certian areas of Caanan, All of them Men, Women, Chidren, even little babies, to kill the livestock and Chop down the fruit trees; the God who was going to Kill all the isrealites except Moses and start over with Him, the God who slew all of Sodom and Gomorrah, this is the God who is " a jealous God", this is the God who Slew the first born of Egypt, God the warrior who crushes his enemies. Are you reading the entire Bible or just the parts that make you feel good. God is a harsh God, He demands much He takes much, and He gives what He wills, who are you to say that the path to salvation He has revealed is unjust, No baby is innocent, they are all tainted with the sin of our first parents, none of us deserve salvation, but some of use get it and others do not, the Sacraments are neccessary for Salvation, because God has declared that they are, who are you to say otherwise.

[jmjtina]

I'm going to say that all aborted babies, babies that died during miscarriages, and babies who died at birth go to heaven. Maybe not on the same level as the Saints (in terms of supernatural happiness) but in heaven nonetheless.

I really don't think that God would beaver dam my little sister to Hell or make her wait for Heaven since He took her away before she was born, in His Time.

My reasoning is that since the Church doesn't necessarily teach where aborted babies go, I'll choose to believe in Jesus' Divine Mercy. That is my hope.

Pax.

[Guest]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 20 2004, 08:27 PM'] And agian He, has told us HOW HE CHOOSES, He has given us outward signs which atually deliever His sanctifying Grace-- They are called Sacraments, that is the only way that He has reveled that anyone at all is saved. If that offends you tough tootles, He is God, He is tha Same God that ordered the Isrealites to slauhter ALL the people in certian areas of Caanan, All of them Men, Women, Chidren, even little babies, to kill the livestock and Chop down the fruit trees; the God who was going to Kill all the isrealites except Moses and start over with Him, the God who slew all of Sodom and Gomorrah, this is the God who is " a jealous God", this is the God who Slew the first born of Egypt, God the warrior who crushes his enemies. Are you reading the entire Bible or just the parts that make you feel good. God is a harsh God, He demands much He takes much, and He gives what He wills, who are you to say that the path to salvation He has revealed is unjust, No baby is innocent, they are all tainted with the sin of our first parents, none of us deserve salvation, but some of use get it and others do not, the Sacraments are neccessary for Salvation, because God has declared that they are, who are you to say otherwise. [/quote]
you need to read the new testiment more

love......unconditioinal love

shedding blood on a cross to justify YOUR SINS

I dont care about the old testiment

Jesus Is My GOD

The Jesus that said the Heavens belong to one of these little ones.....

Thats my God.....

Ya God did what he had to do before Christ......
But now we have Christ..........
He made us worthy
it seems as if your heart is hardened.......
God will not forsake the children...
if you dont know that, you dont know God.....

[Guest]

I take that back, I do care about the old testiment....it was very important......
but you judge John.....you judge alot.......your saying who is going to go to hell, what in the world makes you think you have that authority ??? Who are you to elevate yourself above God and say that he cannot save outside of the sacraments........My friend, there are many "good works" christains can do that are outside of the church.......it seems as if you have alot of pride built up.....with this reply, you have not only said that aborted babies will go to hell, but your also saying that any person who does not particapte in the "sacraments" will be damned to hell also.....Who gives you this right ?? God knows every man's heart....God knows if a man eats the bread of Christ or if he doesnt....A man could eat the bread of Christ sitting at his table in his own kitchen.....You do not know mens hearts, so therefore you do not have authortiy to say who and who will not receive salvation.............Babies that die young are angels my friend.......And no, I dont just read the parts of the bibles that make me feel good....the bible trobles me often, for I know I am a sinner that is burdened......BUT throughout the scriptures I find Gods love always and his mercy.....This keeps me going......