aborted babies and salvation

[thessalonian]

I found your answer to me rather boring.

[ironmonk]

[b]1261 [/b]
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.



[b]Do Aborted Children Go to Heaven?[/b]
[url="http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/98ws/ws981008.htm"]http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/98ws/ws981008.htm[/url]
By Fr. William Saunders
HERALD Columnist
Given that as Catholics we believe that life begins at conception, it would necessarily follow that an unborn child has a soul. If so, are the souls of aborted children lost to limbo as well? I know of several contrite mothers who have suffered the pains of an abortion and been consoled by clergy assuring them that their child is in Heaven. Given your explanation of limbo, this cannot be... can it? — A reader in Alexandria

Before addressing the question at hand, we must first be clear on two points. First, the idea of limbo is a theological speculation, not a defined doctrine of the Catholic Church. Remember we must uphold what our Lord taught concerning the necessity of Baptism: He said, "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter God's kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit" (John 3:5). Therefore, the Catechism rightly asserts, "The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude" (#1257). Limbo, consequently, was a speculation as to what happened to the souls of children in particular who died and who through no fault of their own were not baptized. They did nothing to warrant eternal damnation in Hell, but because of Original Sin and the lack of Baptism they could not enter Heaven. Consequently, theologians, including St. Thomas Aquinas, posited there was a limbo, a place of benign existence. Nevertheless, the teaching of limbo still remains undefined and speculative.

Second, the unborn child is indeed a person at the moment of conception. The Declaration on Procured Abortion asserted, "From the time that the ovum is fertilized, a life is begun which is neither that of the father nor of the mother; it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already" (#12). The Church, however, does not specifically define when ensoulment takes place. However, we rightly believe that Almighty God infuses the soul into the body when in accord with His will that creation is a person: for most of us, that would be at conception, but for identical twins or others, this would be after the initially fertilized single ovum divides. Here again the Church emphasizes that life is sacred from that moment of conception and must be protected. Even if a doubt existed about the personhood of the child in the womb, to risk murder would be an objectively grave sin (#13).

Returning now to the fate of children who are murdered through abortion, or die in the womb before birth, or are miscarried, or are born but die without the benefit of baptism, the Catechism asserts, "The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused Him to say, 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism" (#1261).

Therefore, while upholding our Lord's teaching about the necessity of Baptism, we also focus on "the great mercy of God." Throughout Sacred Scripture the mercy of God is extolled: For instance, Psalm 136 reminds us, "His mercy endures forever," and Psalm145:8-9 proclaims, "The Lord is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness. The Lord is good to all and compassionate toward all His works." Throughout the Gospel, Jesus dealt mercifully with sinners who had freely chosen to sin. St. Paul wrote, "God is rich in mercy; because of His great love for us, He brought us to life with Christ when we were dead in sin" (Ephesians 2:4-5). In all, Sacred Scripture consistently emphasizes the infinite mercy of God.

Because of our firm belief in God's infinite mercy and His universal salvific will that all should be saved, we have a genuine hope that there is indeed a way of salvation for children who have died without the benefit of Baptism through no fault of their own. After all, could we not rightly speculate that the desire of the parents, of the whole Church, of the child (who is made in God's image and likeness, and at least in the most simple way has a natural longing for God), and of God Himself is truly a desire for salvation? Just as those adults, who through no fault of their own know neither the Gospel of Christ or His Church but seek God with a sincere heart and live by the dictates of their conscience with the help of His grace, may attain eternal salvation (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, #16), we certainly trust that a helpless, innocent child who has died in the womb, been aborted, been miscarried, or died without the benefit of Baptism will not be abandoned by the Lord or denied His saving grace.

This hope is evident in the "living faith" of our Church. Pope John Paul II in Evangelium Vitae, when compassionately addressing women who have had abortions, wrote, "...You will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord" (#99). Such a statement indicates the Holy Father's trust in the infinite mercy of God for these children and their place in the Heaven.

In the Opening Prayer for the funeral Mass of an unbaptized child, the priest offers one of the following prayers: "Lord, listen to the prayers of this family that has faith in you. In their sorrow at the death of this child, may they find hope in your infinite mercy," or, "Father of all consolation, from whom nothing is hidden, you know the faith of these parents who mourn the death of their child. May they find comfort in knowing that he is entrusted to your loving care."

Interestingly, prior to the Second Vatican Council, a priest always offered the Mass of the Angels for the children who died without baptism, entrusting their care to the Guardian Angels who look upon the face of God in Heaven. The graces of atonement of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which flow from the death and resurrection of our Lord must surely give repose to these children and comfort to their grieving families.

Moreover, we celebrate the Feast of the Holy Innocents on December 28, who are considered martyrs for the faith although they were neither technically baptized nor knew Christ. Surely, the victims of abortion must be considered modern martyrs, who have shed their blood just because they were created by God yet rejected by others.

While we may still struggle with this issue and find tension due to the lack of definitive teaching, we place our trust in the Lord. While the Lord has revealed to the Church that Baptism is the means of salvation, He is not restricted in offering other graced means unknown to the Church to these helpless children, and for such means the Church has great hope. However, such a hope in the infinite mercy of God must not make us complacent and thereby negligent in having children baptized or in evangelizing others. Rather,

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 19 2004, 08:29 PM'] You are missing the correct answer...

They will have a chance to accept Christ on Judgement day, as those saints before the time of Christ did when Christ went to preach in prison.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
that's basically what i've been saying, saying "limbo" but not "eternal limbo"

thess, i'm done talking to you. i'm kind of dissapointed in the way you handled yourself here. pax.

[qfnol31]

Wow, this thread has gone downhill fast.

I'll respond later.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 19 2004, 11:56 AM'] Such speculation goes beyond anything that has been revealed. [/quote]
Does it counter anything revealed?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 12:35 PM'] Come on guys 62 views and only 6 votes, whats up? [/quote]
I dunno what to vote actually, I don't see a choice for me. I think I might just go blank for "other."

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 19 2004, 02:55 PM'] not really, they aren't being murdered because they are upholding the dignity of life, they are simply being murdered in cold blood.. [/quote]
They kinda are speaking up for life at conception, and are silent witnesses to the tremendous gift of sex and marriage.

[quote]it is a state of natural hapiness (i guess i could see apotheon's point that you could say real hapiness must be somewhat supernatural, but I think natural hapiness as in the most happy one could be in this world, the emotion and also spiritually.  it'd be like the supreme hapiness that could be experienced on earth, i think that's what natural hapiness is.  because even on earth, the supreme hapiness that can be experienced does have a supernatural part to it, as it would in limbo.  natural simply means it is not the joy of the beatific vision, it is the most anyone on earth could be happy but lasting.[/quote]

I think happiness is all the goods lined up for ever, or the soul virtuous in the highest degree possible. Children won't know about God, so contemplating him isn't necessary for their happiness, just living the end of their life in accord with Natural Law could be enough for them to be happy.

[quote]so "natural hapiness" if defined as simply the most hapiness one can experience on earth (which would include technically some supernatural hapiness that comes from God) is what they would experience in limbo, and perhaps at the end of time they will be brought to heaven.[/quote]

I think Aristotle says you can be in eudaimonia (happiness) after you die as long as you are virtuous. I don't think you'd actually have to be contemplating God. I could be wrong.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Don']However Alugi I have to say I don't think your idea is possible, one is either saved or not, if one swas not saved in life one would not get a second chance--- the release from sheol is not analgus, those people had already ben justified and where simply waiting for the Gates of heaven to open, they are now open, you either make the cut or you don't.[/quote]

I was curious why you said this?

[Guest]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 12:42 PM'] Thats a silly theory with regards abortion, how can you desire a lump of flesh to be baptized( not saying the unborn are a lump of flesh but that is what women will tell you who murder there children) I mean come on there killing the child.  Further Third party Baptism of desire is verging on either heresy or just plain silliness, I desire that eveyone in the world be baptized, sincerly I do, and that desire will not save those who are not. [/quote]
I dont feel like getting my bible out
but it says "GOD SAVES WHO HE CHOOZES, HE HAS MERCY ON WHO HE WILLS

again, as ive said before, God is not a robot......God will do whatever he wants, whenever he choozes, and what so ever his huge heart desires..........

IF GOD wants to save a innocent soul who was "murdered" by his or her mother, please belive, God will do just that...........No offence to you, but I find it offending that you belive God is loveing and all merciful......but at the same time would send a innocent child, who did not chose to be "murdered" to hell......
I find that reallly disturbing............thats like saying a mother who had a misscariage, would never see her son or daughter, becuz "GOD sent them to hell becuz the were not baptised" come on brother

GodBless

Edited December 20, 2004 by Guest

[qfnol31]

Actually, everything God does is in alignment with the Greatest Good....

[thessalonian]

"i'm saying that it is wrong to say that because it is not divinely revealed no one should have discussions and opinions and discussions and no one should take sides. "

Aluigi,


It's also wrong to distort people's words. I never said this. Discuss away. I stated my opinion but not in a dogmatic way because the Church doesn't state hers in a dogmatic way.

Thanks for being done with me.

Edited December 20, 2004 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

It should be noted in this thread that even if babies are granted heaven there is loss for them. Loss of the greater reward. God puts us through this life for a reason. That reason is to have a greater love for him and therefore to be more intimately joined to him in the end. The Church says "oh happy fault" at Easter precisely because of this. The child I would have to say, would have been in at least the state that Adam and Eve were in but God's plan brought about a greater good in mankind, allowing sin in so that we could love him more for his forgiveness and mercy. The child would not have the opportunity to experience this, thus would not have as great a reward.

Blessings

[popestpiusx]

Aluigi,

I don't think the temporary limbo hold much water. If it was only a temporary place, it's existence would be pointless. The only point in waiting would be to purify that which is not pure in order to make the soul worthy of the Beatific Vision. If that's the case, how is it different from purgatory? If they are not being purged, why make them wait? Why not just take them to heaven. It seems to me that making them wait just for the sake of waiting would be frivolous, and as such, contrary to the very nature of God. If limbo exists (and I believe it does), it would have to be permanent.


By the way, can you and Thessalonian cut it out so this thread doesn't get shut down.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Dec 20 2004, 03:03 AM'] I dont feel like getting my bible out
but it says "GOD SAVES WHO HE CHOOZES, HE HAS MERCY ON WHO HE WILLS

again, as ive said before, God is not a robot......God will do whatever he wants, whenever he choozes, and what so ever his huge heart desires..........

IF GOD wants to save a innocent soul who was "murdered" by his or her mother, please belive, God will do just that...........No offence to you, but I find it offending that you belive God is loveing and all merciful......but at the same time would send a innocent child, who did not chose to be "murdered" to hell......
I find that reallly disturbing............thats like saying a mother who had a misscariage, would never see her son or daughter, becuz "GOD sent them to hell becuz the were not baptised" come on brother

GodBless [/quote]
But God is not capable of contradiction. So, for instance, He cannot save a person who has rejected Him. It would contradict His nature. In the case being discussed here, it is quite certain that a soul lacking sanctifying grace cannot participate in the Beatific Vision. The normal means of receiving that grace is through the sacrament of Baptism (or baptism in some form, as with the good thief). The death of an unborn child is tragic, especially when considered in these terms, because they do not have the opportunity to receive the sacrament, nor do they have the reasoning ability to "desire" God. Therefore, there is no way to account for the child receiving Grace without speculating beyond that which is reasonable or deductible from revelation. This is why the Church has, for her entire history, proposed limbo as an explanation. Nearly every saint, doctor, and theologian (at least in the west) that wrote on the subject defended either Limbo or the actual damnation of the child (as in Augustine). It was not until that teaching offended modern sensibilities that alternate proposals were made, most of which are untenable. If that's offensive to you, then I suppose you'll have to get over it. That's the Church, like it or not. The Church today has not contradicted that, rather, she says only that we entrust them to God mercy. But keep in mind, that God's mercy is inseparable from his perfect justice. No human ever created ever deserved to be saved. We are offered salvation as a gift. We either accept or reject that gift. It is perfectly permissible to propose an intermediate state for those who neither accept nor reject that gift due to an actual inability to decide one way or the other.

[Guest Aluigi]

that's why i said i was "done" with him, meant to end the bickering.


i think temporary limbo can hold water. it is where they sit in a state of natural hapiness until Christ comes again as he did to those in "limbo" at his first coming. they were not being purified either, they were waiting until the messiah came and let them into heaven. the same would happen, these souls wait in limbo until the Messiah comes again and ties up all loose ends.