aborted babies and salvation

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 11:34 AM'] I forgot you where an Eastern Catholic, you see the distinction between Natural and Supernatural, seems almost essential to me,  but I understand your Idea that one cannot be happy  without some measure of experiancing God, I don'tthink that any scholatic would have said that there was no connection with God in Limbo, just not a supernatural connection.[/quote]
Man truly becomes God in God, but not by participating in God's essence, which is and always will be inaccessible to him, but by participating in God's uncreated energies. In other words, man is truly deifed by God's uncreated grace, and so [i]theosis[/i] must not be reduced to a mere metaphor. The Byzantine theological tradition has a different metaphysical understanding of the nature of created reality, and if you are interested in understanding it better I would recommend reading Dr. Scott F. Pentecost's dissertation at CUA entitled [u]Quest for the Divine Presence: Metaphysics of Participation and the Relation of Philosophy to Theology in St. Gregory Palamas’s [i]Triads[/i] and [i]One Hundred and Fifty Chapters[/i][/u]. The idea that nature can be in some sense autonomous or that there can be a natural end which is distinct from God is problematic. God is the only true end of all that has been created; for as St. Paul said in the book of Acts, it is ". . . in Him [that] we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 11:34 AM'] It is the God in God term that bothers me, we are never God in God,  God is and eternally will be seperate and distinct from His creation. [/quote]
God is, and will always be, essentially distinct from His creation, but the world is permeated with God's creative and sustaining energies. Moreover, through the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, God's purifying, sanctifying, illuminating, and deifying energies are now accessible to man, and as a consequence, man can become divine. As St. Athanasius said, "God became man, so that man might become God."

[Quietfire]

what of Baptism by blood for the unborn?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Dec 19 2004, 12:45 PM'] what of Baptism by blood for the unborn? [/quote]
I believe that one must die specifically for the faith in order for his death to have the effect of the Sacrament of Baptism.

[Socrates]

I honestly don't know where aborted babies go - a sort of Limbo seems reasonable to me, though.

I've never really been able to buy the pious theory that aborted babies are martyrs for the faith because abortion is a crime against Christ. By this logic, any innocent victim of any murder would have an instant crown of martyrdom.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 19 2004, 01:54 PM'] I believe that one must die specifically for the faith in order for his death to have the effect of the Sacrament of Baptism. [/quote]
Is it the dignity of life that they could be dying for?

[Guest Aluigi]

not really, they aren't being murdered because they are upholding the dignity of life, they are simply being murdered in cold blood..

it is a state of natural hapiness (i guess i could see apotheon's point that you could say real hapiness must be somewhat supernatural, but I think natural hapiness as in the most happy one could be in this world, the emotion and also spiritually. it'd be like the supreme hapiness that could be experienced on earth, i think that's what natural hapiness is. because even on earth, the supreme hapiness that can be experienced does have a supernatural part to it, as it would in limbo. natural simply means it is not the joy of the beatific vision, it is the most anyone on earth could be happy but lasting.

and then, though it's speculative i believe it has merit because the Second Coming is to be the fulfillment of the last one and the end of time as we know it (thus everyone should be brought either into heaven or hell at this point) Jesus could very well release the souls from limbo and they can experience the joy of the beatific vision.

so "natural hapiness" if defined as simply the most hapiness one can experience on earth (which would include technically some supernatural hapiness that comes from God) is what they would experience in limbo, and perhaps at the end of time they will be brought to heaven.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 19 2004, 01:55 PM'] not really, they aren't being murdered because they are upholding the dignity of life, they are simply being murdered in cold blood..

it is a state of natural hapiness (i guess i could see apotheon's point that you could say real hapiness must be somewhat supernatural, but I think natural hapiness as in the most happy one could be in this world, the emotion and also spiritually. it'd be like the supreme hapiness that could be experienced on earth, i think that's what natural hapiness is. because even on earth, the supreme hapiness that can be experienced does have a supernatural part to it, as it would in limbo. natural simply means it is not the joy of the beatific vision, it is the most anyone on earth could be happy but lasting.

and then, though it's speculative i believe it has merit because the Second Coming is to be the fulfillment of the last one and the end of time as we know it (thus everyone should be brought either into heaven or hell at this point) Jesus could very well release the souls from limbo and they can experience the joy of the beatific vision.

so "natural hapiness" if defined as simply the most hapiness one can experience on earth (which would include technically some supernatural hapiness that comes from God) is what they would experience in limbo, and perhaps at the end of time they will be brought to heaven. [/quote]
From an Eastern Catholic perspective man cannot be [i]naturally[/i] happy, for man's happiness is only found in God Himself, and God is not [i]natural[/i]; instead, He is by definition [i]supernatural[/i], so anyone who is fulfilled in their being is in some sense participating in God Himself. The Scholastic distinction between [i]natural[/i] and [i]supernatural[/i] happiness doesn't make sense in an Eastern context.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Aluigi]

which is why i was saying that if we understand "natural hapiness" to simply be the supreme hapiness man can achieve in his natural unglorfied state (as in the natural is applied more to the person, not to the hapiness) then we can say that in limbo a person has this "natural hapiness" which of course the actual hapiness must be supernatural, but the person in a natural state only has the highest level of hapiness he would be able to have on earth. does this make sense? I agree with you about the supernatural component of all true hapiness, and that then the hapiness there must be supernatural: it's simply that the soul in limbo is still in the unglorified natural state (has not been elevated to the supernatural state he would be in heaven)and thus does not receive the fullness of the supernatural hapiness.

like think of the most happy you've ever been in your life. this is the level the soul in limbo would have. infinity times that is what the soul in heaven would have.

[Don John of Austria]

Haveing had my thinking processes formed in the Scholstic tradition, I find the distinction helpful between natural and unnatural, however, I don't think there is a material disagreement here just one of terminology.

However Alugi I have to say I don't think your idea is possible, one is either saved or not, if one swas not saved in life one would not get a second chance--- the release from sheol is not analgus, those people had already ben justified and where simply waiting for the Gates of heaven to open, they are now open, you either make the cut or you don't.

[thessalonian]

Sorry Don,

I clicked the blank one because it is closest to my view. I leave it up to the love and mercy of God. All of your answers are possibilities, but I have heard several priests who I trust including Fr. Corapi who is a great teacher of the faith in this country say that it has not been divinely revealed. Therefore I will not give a definitive answer. If you want to believe in limbo that is fine with me and I don't think the Church is going to excommunicate you. Neither will they if you believe that God handles it himself. He may also enlighten their intellect such that they can choose him or deny him. Babies certainly don't go to heaven with the intellect of a baby. I do not believe they go to hell but I don't think the Church will excommunicate you for that either. I do think it is a rather indefensible possition. I also do not believe that God is limited by his sacrements. The scriptures are written for those whom are in fact on the path. Those who do not know them are still responsible for leading moral lives based on the law written on their hearts (Romans 2:15) (which includes the 1st commandment by the way, though they may worship that God in ignorance Acts 17). They must also see him in his creation of which we are told cries out to his glory.

So there ya have it.

Okay, I suppose, I do lean toward God just taking care of their sins as he did the theif on the cross who's hands were tied and had no opportunity for baptism. It is not something we should divide over.

There you got it out of me.

Blessings

God bless

[Guest Aluigi]

that kind of answer is just boring, it's a thing to discuss. if we can't discuss these types of possibilities, what's the point of eschatology and soteriology and all that anyway?

DJ, so Limbo has to be an eternal place? are you sure? there are only two eternal places, heaven and hell, so you'd have to say it's part of one of them. I see no reason why Limbo is not the same place as the Bosom of Abraham was and that at Christ's second coming He would go and baptize them by his word just as he did to the souls that were in Abraham's bosom before then.

anyway, just because it isn't divinely revealed doesn't mean it can't be discussed especially on the terms of such things that have been divinely revealed (that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, God's love, God's mercy, God's justice, the nature of original sin, the fact that original sin damns a person if they die without cleansing it, et cetera et cetera). It's not a divide, it's a healthy discussion. since when does every disagreement on theological nuassances now constitute schism??? so long as we don't bicker and get angry and stuff (stuff we shouldn't even do when we're talkin about the important stuff) it's fine. if you don't want to, you don't have to, then leave the thread alone

anyway, I see Limbo as a place a soul goes just like those righteous Jews before Christ went, because they did not have culpability for extremely evil acts committed in their life (they were blessed and held blameless) and of course by their anticipatory faith in the Messiah to come. They had original sin. So the baby can be considered fully inculpable for any evil action, simply stained with original sin that prevents him from entering heaven (and that is not covered by Purgatory because Purgatory is for culpable venial sins only, not for mortal or original sin) but is not damned by evil he chose, would go to limbo (perhaps not all killed babies, this is something for the Infinite Eternal Mind to deal with as to which babies were predestined or reprobate and how and why and all that stuff that boggles the mind because all we know of them is that they were in their mothers womb and then killed, we have no knowledge of the distinctness of each of their souls and the destiny and strength that was within that soul). If this is the case, he has not been saved nor damned, just like the Patriarchs and the Jewish people of the old covenant (they had not been saved because Heaven was closed and they were not damned because they had no culpability for any mortal sin) save for Elijah and maybe Enoch if that story is literal? who were saved. To me, they are in the same boat- inculpable ignorance of baptism, inculpability for any actual sin, pure but stained with original sin basically. Limbo I believe could be a temporal place, and thus at the Second Coming when all loose ends are tied up they could be freed. (all speculative, but I submit it as a plausible theory that I don't think contradicts sound Doctrine)

[thessalonian]

"that kind of answer is just boring, it's a thing to discuss. "


Well exuse me for posting my opinion on this board. Perhaps I will start insulting your posts. Are you always this belittling and nasty. Further it seems you didnt read my post to the end.

Edited December 20, 2004 by thessalonian

[Guest Aluigi]

jeeze calm down. the begining of your post sugested that we should just ignore the thing because it's not divinely revealed. i wasn't insulting you, stop being so sensitive. this is the internet, you should really never let yourself be offended here.

all i said is that it's boring to just say "we don't know, so let's just leave it alone"

i read your post all the way to the end, all you did was then come out with which way you were leaning. now, the Good Theif case is extremely different than this, but I could see your point. the Church hopes and prays for their salvation, true, the CCC says so. but we are unsure and discussing here speculative theology. no reason to dismiss the discussion because we cannot know for sure.

i was not being mean and nasty. in fact, you're the one that seems hostile to me, but I won't let that bother me because this is the internet and emotions cannot be expressed well through it.

anyway, i'm not insulting your opinion. i'm saying that it is wrong to say that because it is not divinely revealed no one should have discussions and opinions and discussions and no one should take sides. Fr. John Corapi doesn't take sides, because he says he's a rep of the Church so he doesn't get into speculative theology or personal apparitions so that people can see clearly in his preaching simply what the Church teaches and no personal opinions. we need people like that, but there's no reason for us all to be. and i don't think he'd interupt a discussion and tell us not be discuss it because it can't be known for sure by revelation.

w/e... just remember this is the internet and not real life, don't get offended by stuff.

-pax-

[ironmonk]

You are missing the correct answer...

They will have a chance to accept Christ on Judgement day, as those saints before the time of Christ did when Christ went to preach in prison.

God Bless,
ironmonk