Brother Adam Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 It's s'okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 19 2004, 09:44 AM'] Secular Bioethicists or M.D.'s are not people to learn moral value from. Next thing we will be hearing from you is that homosexuality, euthenasia, and China's postbirth-abortion policy are all perfectly okay. You're opinion trumps nothing, most certianly not the Master of the Universe. [/quote] And either is the Church. If it wasnt for the Church claiming everything that contradicted its strangle hold on Europe with heresy claims, we'd be hundreds of years ahead of what we are today. Homosexuality isnt ok. Euthanasia is. China's situation dont know enough about. But I certainly aint gonna learn it from here with its extremist 'morality' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamweaver Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 20 2004, 04:08 AM'] And either is the Church. If it wasnt for the Church claiming everything that contradicted its strangle hold on Europe with heresy claims, we'd be hundreds of years ahead of what we are today. Homosexuality isnt ok. Euthanasia is. China's situation dont know enough about. But I certainly aint gonna learn it from here with its extremist 'morality' [/quote] Huh? Where does the Church state that euthanasia is ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewmeister2 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) Euthanasia is never ok. From the CCC: 2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable. Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded. 2324 Intentional euthanasia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. God bless. Edited December 21, 2004 by drewmeister2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 19 2004, 08:39 AM'] but there are many scenerios where abortion is legitimate, whether you want to recognize that or not has been proven without a doubt already. [/quote] Yeah we have a LAW that give the right for a woman to abort her child for ANY reason. Your point? It doesn't make it right. Enthunasia is ALWAYS wrong. I would like to see your reasoning as to WHY it's okay. If we kill all those who can love and be loved, there is nothing left but a culture of death. Murdering people is ALWAYS wrong. Abortion, Enthuansia included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Let us try this, since the list may be shorter. Phatmasser777, which moral teachings of the Church do you agree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 PM777, Do you believe in absolutely, or is all truth relative to what you believe you have discovered is truth? What you see as "extreme" is in truth, a respect and reverence for all life, not just those lives that one sees as deserving to live. Placing the decision of who gets to live and who must die into anyones hands is playing God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InHisHands381 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Phatmasser777: Do you believe in miracles? If so, how do you know the mother will die for sure? Just because the doctors say she will doesn't mean it's necessarily going to happen. By some miracle she could live. In that case, you would have 2 lives and no babies would have been killed. When I was 2 years old, the doctors told my parents I was either going to die or be paralyzed and thanks to God, I'm perfectly healthy. The doctors are not always right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Dreamweaver' date='Dec 20 2004, 07:32 PM'] Huh? Where does the Church state that euthanasia is ok? [/quote] Who cares? We live in secular nations. Catholic law doesnt apply to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='jmjtina' date='Dec 20 2004, 08:08 PM'] Yeah we have a LAW that give the right for a woman to abort her child for ANY reason. Your point? It doesn't make it right. Enthunasia is ALWAYS wrong. I would like to see your reasoning as to WHY it's okay. If we kill all those who can love and be loved, there is nothing left but a culture of death. Murdering people is ALWAYS wrong. Abortion, Enthuansia included. [/quote] If the person cant live or doesnt want to live with the pain of any illness which is terminal, should have the right to end their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 20 2004, 10:16 PM'] PM777, Do you believe in absolutely, or is all truth relative to what you believe you have discovered is truth? What you see as "extreme" is in truth, a respect and reverence for all life, not just those lives that one sees as deserving to live. Placing the decision of who gets to live and who must die into anyones hands is playing God. [/quote] ALL FORMS OF TRUTH are Relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 typical case of post-enlightenemnt brainwashing. "we ought to give votes to the most obscure of all our classes: the ancestor" -G.K. Chesterton you, my friend, suffer from a bad case of chronological snobbery (term coined by C.S. Lewis). We should not dismiss the past so lightly. Just think about that, and what a grim worldview you hold if everyone that came before you was so wrong and misguided, if they really wasted their lives that much. tell me, if we were years ahead and lacked objective moral guidance, [color=#999999](and this is assuming the civilization that the Church basically sustained and rebuilt after the Roman collapse magically got itself back together and people started scientific discovery even though the beginings and seeds of all scientific discoveries are found in men of the Church)[/color] and we had a cure for cancer and death was defeated by all our inginuity and medical trickery, would humanity really be better off? I think perhaps the spiritual advancements of this "stranglehold" on Europe that those Europeans who are our ancestors seemed to be quite fine with far outweigh any medical advancement that could have happened. no matter how great and good medecine is to heal, it is temporal. if you are content to a grim worldview in which the temporal is the ultimate goal (you got that from the "enlightenment" when they abandoned the afterlife and began worrying about living as long as possible on earth) then you can be upset with the Church's "stranglehold" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 21 2004, 03:58 AM'] ALL FORMS OF TRUTH are Relative. [/quote] So you believe in nothing at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melporcristo Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 21 2004, 01:54 AM'] Who cares? We live in secular nations. Catholic law doesnt apply to all. [/quote] Okay, I'm sorry but even though there isn't a "Catholic law" persay, does that give you an excuse to fail to stand up for the Church? I am praying for you brother, Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madonna Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) I read through this thread quickly, and I just wanted to comment on some of the misunderstandings. To give credibility to what I'm about to say, I'll quote the dictionary. [quote] a·bor·tion 1. Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival. 2. Any of various procedures that result in such termination and expulsion. Also called induced abortion. 3. The premature expulsion of a nonviable fetus from the uterus; a miscarriage. 4. Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation. 5. An aborted organism. [/quote] This is also what I've learned in theology classes. There are three types of abortion. 1. direct abortion: the term we often use for the intended killing of a baby in the womb. 2. spantaneous abortion: aka, a miscarriage. 3. indirect abortion. Clarification on indirect abortion. Many of you have said that removing of the fallopian tubes isn't an abortion. But it is, by definition. And the only other case I know of where there are indirect abortions is when a woman is in the advanced stages of uteran cancer. The uterus is removed, and as a result, the baby is removed with the uterus. To answer the original question, no, all abortion is not immoral. A miscarriage and (in most cases) an indirect abortion are unfortunate, but not sinful, things. Direct abortion, however, is probably one of the worst of the evils. For secular and humanistic reasons to oppose abortion, the book [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0880704721/103-8836342-6563065?v=glance"]Prolife Answers to Prochoice Arguments[/url] is a must read. It's good for someone who is pro-choice or pro-life to read. A point to throw out there to snuff out the "the brain and heart form at this time" argument...any embryologist will tell you that life forms at conception. Look at the last definition. It says an aborted organism. An organism is life. The dictionary says a growing baby in the womb is life. Edited December 21, 2004 by Madonna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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