Why do *good* Hindus have more hope of heaven

[Budge]

This is a discrepancy Ive noticed.

The Pope has spoken of the thread of the "sects" (ie fundamentalists and evangelicals.

I left the Catholic Church with sincere beliefs behind it. I refuse Universalism even in Christian forms. I do not believe in Purgatory, the Real Precense, and other Catholic doctrines.

It is interesting to note that by Catholic teachings that even I a CHristian who openly witnesses Jesus Christ even to athiest and unbelievers IRL, believes in Gods Word, is seen has having far less chance of making it to heaven then a *good* HIndu (Even one who heard the gospel) according to the Novus Ordo Catholic church because I left the umbrella of Catholicism while as we speak the umbrella has now been expanded to cover the Islamics perhaps with Buddhists and Hindus next.

The Dalai Lama who believes himself to be a god, is a lauded figure in NOvus Ordo Catholicism. An ex-Catholic fundie is of much lower status to the Catholic church then a man who goes around the world selling false ideas of NEw Age antiChrist, gaia Peace.

A Catholic wrote this on another board:


[b]The statement was made, however, that it will be worse for schismatics in the Final Judgment than it will be for the unbelievers (who do not believe through no fault of their own). I'm afraid I have to agree. I say this without having fully investigated the church's teachings, but rather as a private scholar. The reason I believe this to be so is that those who have split from the church, creating factions and fragmenting the unity of the church body, do so after having been exposed to the glorious and holy teachings of the Lord. In their split, they are rejecting the Son and in doing so I fear that they are rejecting their own salvation through pride and willfulness. I pray that the Prince of Peace will have mercy, grant wisdom for those who are outside of His church, and judge schismatics based on their love for Him, rather than their actions of derision and haughty contempt.[/b]

So according to the Catholic Church, chances are far greater that Im going to hell then the Dalai Lama.

[Don John of Austria]

Okay so a Catholic wrote this, do you have a point?

[Benedict]

Budge's points are all too often completely removed from the "evidence" she provides or is provided with.

Just ask my mom . . . or my girlfriend.

[drewmeister2]

God knows our souls, and will judge accordingly. If you, through no fault of your own, don't know the Truth, but still seek God, and try to act with a good conscience, you could still obtain salvation, according to CCC 847.

[thessalonian]

A catholic might say this with regard to several scriptures. First of all I would cite Romans 2:15 which notes that some in ignorance do what the law requires and are a law unto themselves.

Secondly I would cite Luke 12 where it says "to the one that knew he will be treated as the unbeliever. But the one who did not know, he will recieve but few lashes".

Then in Hebr 6 it speaks of the one who has been santified and tasted the heavenly fruites, then turned his back on them, cannot be brought back. I see the vigorous virtrol with which former Catholics assult the Church as an ominous omen of this verse. But I believe that all things are possible through him.

I alway find it difficult to reconcile these verses with a Catholic who has left the Church quite honestly. It is difficult to imagine how someone could be given baptism, have the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ (whether you believe in it or not it is just as true as if you step in front of a bus going 60 you will most likely be killed), such that you have God's infinite grace, how one could not be held accountable if you turned away from the Church, having access to such grace. Further, while one may have left "in good conscience" we are responsible for that conscience which we may have corrupted by willful sin, or by antagonism toward the Church, or by lack of dilligence in study. To turn from a higher truth to a truth mixed with error simply cannot be a good thing. But God is the judge and I will not comment on your eternal destiny. But will include you in my prayers.


God bless

Thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Here are the verses I was talking about:

Luke 12:45-48
"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.



Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

I do not consider this a bluff. To this verse I add:

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

They were severed by one error. That of requiring circumcision.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Pretty somber words which I take very seriously with regard to those who have left the fullness of the truth and the bosom of mother Church. Very sad.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote]So according to the Catholic Church, chances are far greater that Im going to hell then the Dalai Lama.[/quote]
Budge, I think it's unfair of you to say "according to the Catholic Church" after quoting someone who explicitly states that he is providing his personal opinion.

That little problem aside, I would be happy to provide more passages from Holy Scripture to underline the point that those who leave the Catholic Faith are in a worse situation than those who never had the Faith.

[quote name='1 Timothy 5:8']And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.[/quote]

Presumably, any denial of the faith puts one in a state worse than the unbeliever.

[quote name='2 Peter 2:20' date='12']For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.  For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them[/quote]

For some reason, this verse from the Gospel of John ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john9.htm#v41"]John 9:41--link[/url]) popped into mind, though. I think it might be a little relevant, too (echoing some passages in Romans).

After all this, I would neither want to be apostate (heretic or schismatic) nor a believer in a false non-Christian religion/philosophy. Why worry about who has a better chance of eternal fire? Why not avoid eternal fire by faithfully uniting yourself to the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church?

Regarding "making it to heaven," one can properly talk about "good" non-Catholics, though I think it's pure speculation to try to decide which non-Catholics have a "better chance" of heaven--I've never heard of a Catholic teaching that tries to comparitively analyze which infidel has the best chances for heaven.

Though "being good" doesn't get a person into heaven, we can discuss the idea of a "good non-Catholic." In Catholic theology, it is taught that there is a "Natural Law" written on our hearts (I think there are some relevant passages in Romans) that make God's law known to those who haven't even heard the Gospel of Jesus. Those non-Christians who are knowingly living contrary to Natural Law may be judged more severly than those non-Christians who order their lives to the Natural Law. The latter could be termed "good non-Christians."

Also, you might want to work on improving your terms. There is no "Novus Ordo Catholic Church" nor an "Catholic Church." There is a "Catholic Church." Also, there is no such thing as an Islamic. There are Muslims (note: Muhammadeans isn't PC these days; but even if I was tempted to use it, it's too annoying to write such a long term repeatedly).

Regarding your concern about Gaia and other New Age theology, the Catholic Church's Magesterium rejects these novelties. Unfortunately, some Catholic laymen, priests and even bishops have been led astray (e.g. see the Minneapolis St. Joan Church stuff for abuses by local Church officials). If you'd like to learn about the Catholic Church's teachings, read Her documents and leave behind the belief that every local priest is somehow an infallible authority unto himself.

God bless.

[Don John of Austria]

I likethe word Mohammadan it is exact, it isn't a lie ( like muslim is) and it says who and what they are ina word. It may be unPC but it is a wonderful term.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 15 2004, 12:27 AM'] I likethe word Mohammadan it is exact, it isn't a lie ( like muslim is) and it says who and what they are ina word. It may be unPC but it is a wonderful term. [/quote]
I hear what you're saying, though we Catholics are victims of the same logic from anti-Catholics who need to make up weird names in an attempt to discredit us (e.g. Romists, Papists, etc).

[Don John of Austria]

It didn't bother them for the first 1000 years of their existance, And I have always liked the term Papist--- I am a Papist.

[Mateo el Feo]

I'm an ultramontanist.

[hyperdulia again]

Budge, if it bothers you less I believe Hindus and non-Catholic Christians, in the modern west, are both practically hopeless.

Extra Ecclesia Nulla Sallus

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Dec 14 2004, 11:43 PM'] Budge, if it bothers you less I believe Hindus and non-Catholic Christians, in the modern west, are both practically hopeless.

Extra Ecclesia Nulla Sallus [/quote]

[Crusader_4]

God judges the human heart and knows where we are in our process of conversion and reconcilliation to his son. As a result i find it very idfficultu for those who openly reject mother Church or are not docile to the teachigns of the magesterium or open to growth. Having said t hat there is a saying although i do not fully believe in it as it says "A Good muslum is a good Christian and a good Christian is a good Muslum". Like i said i do not blieve in this quote so i will not defend it, but i think if there is truth to be told its that when one searches and yearns for God with his whole heart and through no fault of his own is not in a position to open themselves fully to Christ God will look upon them through his infitne wisdom and judge accordingly.

[Theoketos]

^ownage