spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Dec 13 2004, 10:45 PM'] sounds like I have to add this site to me Red Alert section and have some emails and phone calls sent. this whole, love the sinner, hate the sin thing is getting out of hand. Theres a Jesuit ran Church in Boston that doesnt even have a Crucifix in their Church and they are involved in the 'Gay Pride' parade every year they have a Catholic banner that they carry in it. I emailed the Church and got that whole 'love the sinner hate the sin' junk. being gay is fine being an ACTIVE Gay and having sex is a grave mortal sin. Anyone who cant accept this needs to get a clue. you'll see this on my website in a few days. Thanks for the link [/quote] How can you say that love the sinner hate the sin is junk and then turn around and say the same thing? It is possible to be firm AND compassionate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 The whole Catholicity general talk forum emailed these people, and their bishop, and the papal nuncio. They are a scandal. and are quite proud of it. Loving the sinner does not mean accepting the sin and saying its ok. We need to tell the truth in and out of season, even when it hurts or offends someone to hear they are doing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 13 2004, 10:57 PM'] The whole Catholicity general talk forum emailed these people, and their bishop, and the papal nuncio. They are a scandal. and are quite proud of it. Loving the sinner does not mean accepting the sin and saying its ok. We need to tell the truth in and out of season, even when it hurts or offends someone to hear they are doing wrong. [/quote] Agreed. It just needs to come from a place of compassion not anger and frustration. Loving the sinner, hating the sin doesn't acknowledge the sin as normal or acceptable. It just means that you have to do the best you can to help people regardless of where they are spiritually. Now, this doesn't mean that active gays and lesbians should be receiving the eucharist or becoming priests or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 14 2004, 12:00 AM'] Agreed. It just needs to come from a place of compassion not anger and frustration. Loving the sinner, hating the sin doesn't acknowledge the sin as normal or acceptable. It just means that you have to do the best you can to help people regardless of where they are spiritually. Now, this doesn't mean that active gays and lesbians should be receiving the eucharist or becoming priests or anything like that. [/quote] I agree with what you are saying. However, these people dont need compassion. They are not trying to adapt their lives to Christ, they are trying to adapt Christ to THEM. They think the Church should say 'its ok to live the Gay lifestyle'..welp, its not going to happen, never. Just like the Sash Movement. In the article above it mentions that a Eucharistic Group stood in the isles so that they couldnt recieve the Eucharist. Praise GOD! The moment we allow them to hurt Jesus by recieving Him in the Eucharist, knowing FULL well they live a life of sin, then the whole Church will succumb to it. It was the Great Pope Paul VI who said "The smoke of Satan has entered the Church." its apparent that the Holy Father knew what he was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:05 PM'] I agree with what you are saying. However, these people dont need compassion. They are not trying to adapt their lives to Christ, they are trying to adapt Christ to THEM. They think the Church should say 'its ok to live the Gay lifestyle'..welp, its not going to happen, never. Just like the Sash Movement. In the article above it mentions that a Eucharistic Group stood in the isles so that they couldnt recieve the Eucharist. Praise GOD! The moment we allow them to hurt Jesus by recieving Him in the Eucharist, knowing FULL well they live a life of sin, then the whole Church will succumb to it. It was the Great Pope Paul VI who said "The smoke of Satan has entered the Church." its apparent that the Holy Father knew what he was talking about. [/quote] I almost agree. But these people perhaps need a firm and compassionate hand more than others. It isn't violence or wrath or excommunication that is going to get these people to toe in line. It is kindness and explaining to them WHY they can't do what they're doing and then providing them with a positive alternative that will turn the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 No. Kindness is how you treat little kids or dumb animals. These people are not little or dumb and know exactly what they are doing. It is deliberate and willful disobedience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:24 PM'] No. Kindness is how you treat little kids or dumb animals. These people are not little or dumb and know exactly what they are doing. It is deliberate and willful disobedience. [/quote] You know homosexuality was listed in the DSM-IV until 1973? I guess that would have made it the DSM-III back then not IV. For those of you that don't know, the DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual used for diagnosing mental illness. If being gay isn't a choice (which it isn't) then you should have compassion for the struggle. Imagine if someone told you that you couldn't have sex because it was wrong. Would violating that edict seem so outrageous? Here we have a group of people having a hard time reconciling their sexuality with the Church that they love. They are in error and going about it the wrong way. But this doesn't mean they don't have extenuating circumstances. We should tell them they are in the wrong, we should do everything we can to get them to repent and not to sin again. However, to say that it shouldn't come from a place of compassion and love within our hearts is NOT Christian. To say that they shouldn't be treated with kindness is even worse. The simple fact of the matter is that we are all CHILDREN of God. We all make mistakes, we all slip up, and sometimes it takes someone to show us the right way. How would you like it if your confessor didn't treat you with kindness? How would you like it if Jesus didn't treat you with kindness? Edited December 14, 2004 by spathariossa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
let_go_let_God Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 The CCC [quote]Chastity and homosexuality 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [/quote] People that are homosexuals should be prayed for and accepted. It is not the person that is homosexual that is out of God's Grace, it is only when they act upon their tendencies that it becomes a mortal sin. Prayers are needed here and I'm sure that Archbishop Flynn will do the right thing. God bless- LGLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='let_go_let_God' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:42 PM'] The CCC People that are homosexuals should be prayed for and accepted. It is not the person that is homosexual that is out of God's Grace, it is only when they act upon their tendencies that it becomes a mortal sin. Prayers are needed here and I'm sure that Archbishop Flynn will do the right thing. God bless- LGLG [/quote] Thank you. I think the CCC says it better than I ever could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 14 2004, 12:29 AM'] You know homosexuality was listed in the DSM-IV until 1973? I guess that would have made it the DSM-III back then not IV. For those of you that don't know, the DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual used for diagnosing mental illness. If being gay isn't a choice (which it isn't) then you should have compassion for the struggle. Imagine if someone told you that you couldn't have sex because it was wrong. Would violating that edict seem so outrageous? Here we have a group of people having a hard time reconciling their sexuality with the Church that they love. They are in error and going about it the wrong way. But this doesn't mean they don't have extenuating circumstances. We should tell them they are in the wrong, we should do everything we can to get them to repent and not to sin again. However, to say that it shouldn't come from a place of compassion and love within our hearts is NOT Christian. To say that they shouldn't be treated with kindness is even worse. The simple fact of the matter is that we are all CHILDREN of God. We all make mistakes, we all slip up, and sometimes it takes someone to show us the right way. How would you like it if your confessor didn't treat you with kindness? How would you like it if Jesus didn't treat you with kindness? [/quote] I for one cant argue with your stand point. I bet it IS rough for them. You know, if they were a group of people that came out and said "Hey were struggling here, we need help because we dont know what to do, we know were living in Sin but we cant help it" Then the compassion would be there and it would be easier to look at them. But thats not what is happening. They know that living the gay lifestyle is a sin, they know gay sex is a sin. Instead of seeking help they are trying to change what the Church Teachs. They flont it in our faces at 'Gay Masses' that are said in parishs in boston. They hold parades and celebrate it. What you said is valid, but it would be MORE valid if these people were truly repentent and WANTING to change, rather than changing everything around them. They know recieving Jesus is a sin since they are active in their lifestyle. but they still do it. I think it was CMom who said "Dis me and I'll get over it, Dis the Eucharist and I'll draw my sword" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:46 PM'] I for one cant argue with your stand point. I bet it IS rough for them. You know, if they were a group of people that came out and said "Hey were struggling here, we need help because we dont know what to do, we know were living in Sin but we cant help it" Then the compassion would be there and it would be easier to look at them. But thats not what is happening. They know that living the gay lifestyle is a sin, they know gay sex is a sin. Instead of seeking help they are trying to change what the Church Teachs. They flont it in our faces at 'Gay Masses' that are said in parishs in boston. They hold parades and celebrate it. What you said is valid, but it would be MORE valid if these people were truly repentent and WANTING to change, rather than changing everything around them. They know recieving Jesus is a sin since they are active in their lifestyle. but they still do it. I think it was CMom who said "Dis me and I'll get over it, Dis the Eucharist and I'll draw my sword" [/quote] I understand your point of view but yet again I have to stress compassion. In fact, compassion is even more necessary because they're so set in being wrong. Jesus told us that to love those who love us isn't a big deal. Everyone does that. But He called us to love those who hate us. Now, I'm pretty sure the people at this church don't hate us, so how much easier is it then to love them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 Actually, I think it's IcePrincess quoting her mom... If you look at the website for the parish, you notice all kinds of stuff... very, very lax on sacrements. In fact in their list of adult sacrements, they list annulment right under marriage. They celebrate first Eucharist in second grade and first reconciliation in forth... There's some sort of Eco-spirituality something or other there... tons of abuses... not just the GL thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:49 PM'] Now, I'm pretty sure the people at this church don't hate us, so how much easier is it then to love them? [/quote] I would bet that they do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:50 PM'] Actually, I think it's IcePrincess quoting her mom... If you look at the website for the parish, you notice all kinds of stuff... very, very lax on sacrements. In fact in their list of adult sacrements, they list annulment right under marriage. They celebrate first Eucharist in second grade and first reconciliation in forth... There's some sort of Eco-spirituality something or other there... tons of abuses... not just the GL thing... [/quote] lol... Well I never said I'd want to attend services there. I can barely tolerate the standard fare here in California. I was converting to Orthodoxy because of the strict ways of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:51 PM'] I would bet that they do... [/quote] Well that doesn't change the command from Christ Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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