ironmonk Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 23 2004, 11:16 AM'] Obvious? I understood quite well what you were attempting to say. I simply think you are dead wrong. I can assure you, friend, that there is no lack of comprehension. In fact, the only lack of comprehension would have to be on your part, as you do not understand what the Church actually teaches on this matter. This is not merely my opinion. In fact, several others on here have defended what I'm saying (including Apotheoun, aluigi, and Cmom). Are they having comprehension problems as well? That's not to mention the long list of saints, popes and councils who we are merely quoting. Furthermore, I have a pretty list of theologians today, all exceptionally intelligent, and exeptionally orthodox, who I am in agreement with on this matter. Three os which, in case you would like to know, are Fr. Rutler, Dr. William Marshner, Fr. Brian Harrison, and to some extent even Avery Dulles (though he seems to bounce around on the subject). But I am sure, Ironmonk, that they have comprehension problems. Perhaps I will pass on to them your e-mail address so that they can consult you when they are having comprehension problems, since you and you alone have it all figured out. Anyone who can't see such an obvious point is just plain dumb? In any case, I know that I have much to learn. I don't have all the right answers. I think we are all in the same boat on that point. It would do us well to keep that in mind. Sometimes the answer is not as obvious or as simple as we would like to believe. Have a glorious Christmas season! [/quote] Maybe you should read the quote that I wrote you obviously didn't comprehend. As for everything else... I'll trust the official teaching of the Church instead of my own judgement.... [u][b]the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."[/b][/u] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 A fool will think it right that a State execute a man for the death of two innocents when people so many others kill more people and do not get executed. That is not justice. The court system is a game... there is no justice. Lock them all up... let God sort them out. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 (edited) Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread, which it seems you have not comprehended. Your quote refutes nothing I, nor anyone else on here, have said. Let me ask you this: Who is to judge, in particular cases, whether or not an execution is necessary? Who is to judge whether or not a given state's prison system is advanced enough to be failproof, or whether or not the criminal poses a threat to other inmates in that prison? Who is to judge whether or not a given punishment has sufficiently redressed the wrongdoing? You? Me? The Pope? No. No. No. The State, to whom that duty is entrusted. The Pope's statement is based on an assessment of the modern prison system, as I have said before. We are not bound to agree with that assessment, as it is not protected by the charism of infallibility, nor is he demanding that we do so. Ratzinger has made that abundantly clear. This, of course, doesn't even touch on the fact that there are two ends of punishment as apotheoum stated above. I am quite certain that I am not the one having trouble comprehending this argument. Edited December 23, 2004 by popestpiusx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 23 2004, 12:52 PM'] A fool will think it right that a State execute a man for the death of two innocents when people so many others kill more people and do not get executed. That is not justice. [/quote] This is a relative standard. Every state has its own laws in this regard. One state refusing to exercise its right to execute does not remove the right of other states to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 we are not ignoring the magisterium, you are ignoring the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith when it says that Catholics may have differing opinions regarding the APPLICATION of the death penalty. You are ignoring the Council of Trent and the ancient teaching of the Church that says the death penalty is both a just punishment and a just recourse to protect society. We are being faithful to the teachings of the Church on this issue, it is you, Ironmonk, that is questionable. Any murderer caught by the state would justly receive execution as a punishment. you can't keep throwing John Paul II's quote that the cases are rare if non-existant while ignoring John Paul II's right-hand man Ratzinger saying that we can have differing views regarding the application of the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 23 2004, 12:52 PM'] A fool will think it right that a State execute a man for the death of two innocents when people so many others kill more people and do not get executed. [/quote] Then I am a fool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 who else would be a fool? The Council Fathers from Trent perhaps? Pope Innocent III and Pope Pius XII, popes and saints for 2000 years? I guess they're all geniuses. They all knew that not every murderer gets caught, that some go free. It's the ones that the state has the oppurtunity to execute that it executes justly. Have you read this thread Ironmonk? I'm not sure that you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 [quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 22 2004, 07:56 PM'] The death penalty is an issue Catholics can legitimately disagree on. [/quote] I agree with Al on this. It's the same as the idea of just war. Just war doctrine has been set forth, but it's fine (great?) for Catholics to disagree on its application. [quote]It has never been proposed as ex cathredra teaching that the death penalty cannot be used.[/quote] This is actually true because only two teachings are [i]ex Cathedra[/i] in the Church's history. [i]Ex Cathedra[/i] statements are actually infallible definitions given by Popes. It can be infallible without a definition. [quote]Plenty of Popes in the past have supported the death penalty. Because someone is pro-death penalty does not mean he is a bad Catholic or goes against Church teaching. I'm sick of the death-penalty issue being used to sow confusion and discord![/quote] This all I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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