Scott Peterson Death Sentence

[ironmonk]

More of a burden on society is wrong.

The death penalty is a bigger burden on society than life in prison.

I am assuming you mean a monetary burden... it's cheaper to have someone in prison for life than to execute them.

In this case the Church is clear that there is NO NEED for the death penalty.

Sin is a sin... we all deserve to die because of our sins... lying, murder, fornication, etc... if we are guilty in one, we are guilty in all.

Things I stated are very relevant, use your mind and think a little.

Killing Scott is not punishment, it's revenge. There is no need to kill him to protect society.

Maybe you should pay a little more attention to the Catechism....

[b]CCC 2267[/b]
...Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—[u][b]the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."[/b][/u]


The execution of Scott is not an absolute necessity, if you think it is, you've got a lot to learn in life and you are in my prayers.

The only case I could see where execution was necessity is Osama Bin'Laden and other terrorists, in order to protect society.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited December 22, 2004 by ironmonk

[popestpiusx]

Tuba,
Have you ever read anything on the death penalty written prior to the CCC?

The fact of the matter is this: The state has the right to execute. It may do so when it judges such action to be necessary. It is a prudential judgment made by the state. Such is the teaching of the Church. The Pope does not have the authority to change that. He is personally against the death penalty. Thats fine. But we are not bound to accept that opinion, nor are we bound his assessment of the modern prison system (if there is such a thing as A modern prison system), which is well outside the realm of faith and morals. But even the Pope acknowledges that the DP is acceptable in some circumstances.

[Apotheoun]

In the traditional doctrine of the Church there is no requirement that the State limit itself to non-lethal means, and so this idea cannot cannot be applied as a general rule, because the State has a twofold duty: (1) to protect society from further injury by rendering the criminal harmless, and (2) punishing the malefactor in order to redress the wrong committed by him. As far as the second element is concerned, it is not possible to rule out the judicious use of the death penalty by the State.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 22 2004, 10:25 AM'] [b]CCC 2267[/b]
...Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—[u][b]the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."[/b][/u]
[/quote]
This is a prudential judgment, not a dogmatic one, and so no Catholic is required to accept it.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Aluigi]

"There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." -Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Head of the CDF

I do not have to believe that cases are rare if practically non-existant, and I don't think they are. All executions of people who are actually guilty are just, but maybe not all should happen. That's a question of the application of the death penalty. I think the state should sometimes consider mercy, even though the criminal deserves execution, when there is non-lethal means available by which he can still receive just punishment (limit on his freedom for the rest of his life, this is not necessarily to convert him but to punish him, conversion rate in prison I don't believe is as high as it is on death row anyway). It's not vengeance, the criminal deserves death, the state gives it to him.

The traditional doctrine of the Church, as I previously mentioned with the Council of Trent (have you read through the thread?) is that such criminals deserve death from the state and the state would be completely justified in executing them. Read the CCC in that light, and you'll see that we're merely trying to have the state show some criminals undeserved mercy by non-lethal even when they deserve execution. prison is not rehabilitation, anyone who thinks that is fooling themselves. prison oftentimes makes people worse.

[Apotheoun]

It is part of the traditional doctrine of the Church that when a man willingly accepts in union with Christ the punishment set by the State for his crime, he expiates his sin and can redeem himself.

God bless,
Todd

[cooltuba]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Dec 22 2004, 12:28 PM'] Tuba,
Have you ever read anything on the death penalty written prior to the CCC?

The fact of the matter is this: The state has the right to execute. It may do so when it judges such action to be necessary. It is a prudential judgment made by the state. Such is the teaching of the Church. The Pope does not have the authority to change that. He is personally against the death penalty. Thats fine. But we are not bound to accept that opinion, nor are we bound his assessment of the modern prison system (if there is such a thing as A modern prison system), which is well outside the realm of faith and morals. But even the Pope acknowledges that the DP is acceptable in some circumstances. [/quote]
Yes, I've read Trent on the matter. I don't deny that a murderer DESERVES to die, I stated that. In light of the CCC, though, in our times mercy must be applied because we have the means to protect society non-lethally.

The state is rarely capable of making prudent decisions (think abortion). We must make them for it, by changing the law allowing executions.

Peace,

Tim

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 22 2004, 01:25 PM']

The death penalty is a bigger burden on society than life in prison.

I am assuming you mean a monetary burden... it's cheaper to have someone in prison for life than to execute them.







[/quote]
That's only due to the rediculous appellate system in this country.

[quote]In this case the Church is clear that there is NO NEED for the death penalty.[/quote]

That's interesting. I havn't heard any pronouncements on the case.

[quote]Sin is a sin... we all deserve to die because of our sins... lying, murder, fornication, etc... if we are guilty in one, we are guilty in all. [/quote]

This statement is rediculous. We are talking here about the right or duty of states to punish criminals. What are you talking about? If we guilty in all, then we should all be locked up? Also, the statement "sin is a sin", by which I think you mean something to the efect of all sin being equally grevious, is thelogically incorrect. There are sins that disrupt the social order worse than others. Murdering your wife and unborn child is one such sin. Social order must be restored. It's not about revenge, it's about restoring justice which was disrupted by the crime.

[quote]Things I stated are very relevant, use your mind and think a little.[/quote]
I did. That's why I referred to them as irrelevant. You are mixing apples and oranges.


[quote]
Killing Scott is not punishment, it's revenge. There is no need to kill him to protect society.[/quote]

Again, that rediculous. It would most definately be a punishment. The question being discussed is whether or not it would be a just one. I maintain, for reasons already stated, that it would in fact be just and has nothing to do with "revenge".

[quote]Maybe you should pay a little more attention to the Catechism.... [/quote]

Perhaps. Maybe you should pay a little more attention to what the Church has alsways taught on the subject. Now we both have something to work on.

[quote]The execution of Scott is not an absolute necessity, if you think it is, you've got a lot to learn in life and you are in my prayers.[/quote]

I can assure you that I have much to learn in life. Am I to assume from your statement that you do not? A hair on the self-rightous don't you think?

[Apotheoun]

Mercy must not only be shown to the convicted criminal, but to the family of his victim as well. Moreover, mercy and justice are coordinate principles and cannot be separated from each other, because true mercy must always be just, and true justice must always be merciful.

In some cases the execution of a criminal may be the truly merciful act.

God bless,
Todd

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 22 2004, 12:54 PM'] Mercy must not only be shown to the convicted criminal, but to the family of his victim as well. Moreover, mercy and justice are coordinate principles and cannot be separated from each other, because true mercy must always be just, and true justice must always be merciful.

In some cases the execution of a criminal may be the truly merciful act.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
I respect your opinion, and I realize that as Catholics, we are free to believe that the death penalty may be applied. I choose to believe that we must fight the culture of death wherever we can, including CP. I'm not trying to convince anyone, really, I'm just voicing my opinion.

Peace,

Tim

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 22 2004, 11:08 AM'] I respect your opinion, and I realize that as Catholics, we are free to believe that the death penalty may be applied.  I choose to believe that we must fight the culture of death wherever we can, including CP.  I'm not trying to convince anyone, really, I'm just voicing my opinion.

Peace,

Tim [/quote]
The Church's doctrine is clear, every innocent human being has a right to life. But that does not mean that criminals, who have committed heinous crimes against the moral order, are not to be punished with a punishment commensurate with their crime.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 22 2004, 11:08 AM'] I'm not trying to convince anyone, really, I'm just voicing my opinion.
[/quote]
As we all are.

What all Catholics are required to accept, as an infallible teaching of the Church, is that the State has the right, and sometimes even the duty, to execute a criminal.

Where Catholics may disagree is in the application of the death penalty in relation to particular instances.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Aluigi]

sometimes when Apotheon's here it makes me feel worthless. lol. i'm gonna bow out for now so long as I agree with him, because he's much more eloquent about it than I. I've made my position clear and currently agree 100% with Apotheon.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cooltuba' date='Dec 22 2004, 01:49 PM'] Yes, I've read Trent on the matter. I don't deny that a murderer DESERVES to die, I stated that. In light of the CCC, though, in our times mercy must be applied because we have the means to protect society non-lethally.

The state is rarely capable of making prudent decisions (think abortion). We must make them for it, by changing the law allowing executions.

Peace,

Tim [/quote]
The state has always had the means to protect society through non-lethal means. Exile to some island prison worked quite nicely. No prison system is fail-proof. People escape prisons today just as they did in the past. There are ancient prisons that had exemplary records. There are modern prisons that have abominable records.

[ironmonk]

Though Catholics are not "required" to stick to it, a Catholic would be a fool to disagree with the official teaching.

Anyone who thinks Scott should die has a lot to learn about Christ.

Understanding and wisdom grows with the Church... States do have the right to use the death penalty, and the Church has been guided to teach that the right is to protect society.

What do you think Christ would say? Do you really think Christ would say kill him? If so, you've got a lot to learn about Christ. Christ loves Him just as much as anyone else.

Would you execute Christ?

[b]St. Matt 25:31 [/b]
"[color=red]When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, [/color]
[b]32 [/b][color=red]and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [/color]
[b]33 [/b][color=red]He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. [/color]
[b]34 [/b][color=red]Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [/color]
[b]35 [/b][color=red]For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, [/color]
[b]36 [/b][color=red]naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' [/color]
...
[b]40 [/b][color=red]And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' [/color]
...
[b]45 [/b][color=red]He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me[/color].'


[i][color=blue]"When I was in on death row, you saved my life"[/color][/i]



If we do not see Christ in everyone, we fail as Catholics.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited December 22, 2004 by ironmonk