CCC 841

[thessalonian]

BTW - Personally I would say that if I rejected the Immaculate Conception I would be hell bound. So would you put that on your list of what those Moslems in college would have to have heard of and assent to so that they are "off the hook"?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]I've not changed the Gospel to conform to anything.[/quote]

I never said [i]you[/i] did.

[quote]I most certainly would not tell anyone who is a Moslem that they are okay where they are at and my understanding of 841 does not mean that I would do that. It simply tells me I am not the judge as you seem to want me to be.
[/quote]


Agian I never said [i]you[/i] did or would. Nor did I ask you or anyone to be the Judge of any particular muslims soul, however, we need not judge Ilam to know that it is an Evil religion, that has already been determined for us by the Church. Anything that says it is not an Evil religion is denying the Tradition of the Church and Councilier statements to the Contrary( lets not even adresss the affrontery to the authority of the Papacy.) Therefore we must judge the Religion as a whole to be at the very least worthy of nothing but destruction ( that doesn't mean we should kill all the moslems) it should, it must be destroyed.
[quote]
At what point does it become bull. The point at which you utter the words Jesus Christ? Or do you have to spend 3 hours with them explaining the Eucharist and the Papacy and Baptism.
[/quote]

The arrogance of your implacation is astounding, you know nothing of me, how much time have you spent as a missionary to the Heretic, and the Infidel, I spent years, and I have been honored to see my words strike home, to see those I persevered with come into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And I assure you that none of those people who have left their former falsehoods did so because I was overly concerned about their culture, I was concerned about the Truth.

[quote]Your sounding a bit modernist or Protestant to me here. Sounds like you
are saying is simply hearing of Christ enough for you. Protestants claim as much. Do you think they are "off the hook". Perhaps they have even cast out demons in his name. Is that enough. At what point is someone "off the hook". [/quote]


First i would submit that a welleducated muslim has heard as much about Jesus as many Christians, That being said here is your answer---


One must assent to as much of the Truth as one has been taught. If someone in Rural China knows only that Christ is the Son of the one God and that you go to the river to be baptized and knows nothing of schism or Church, then He has assented to all that has been offered him( i know for a fact that large portions of China this is the case), the rest is ignorance and since they Have assented to All they have been told it is [i]possible[/i] that they are saved, they are in the Church as Far as they know, but ifone rejects what little they are taught then they have condemned themselves.



[quote] Everyone needs to come closer to Christ or risk falling into sin and ending up being damned. Not even you and I as baptized Catholics are exempt from continuing to grow in Christ. [/quote]

never said otherwise.

[quote]BTW - Personally I would say that if I rejected the Immaculate Conception I would be hell bound. So would you put that on your list of what those Moslems in college would have to have heard of and assent to so that they are "off the hook"? [/quote]


You have been fully informed of the Truth, so I would agree, that muslim in college has to assent to what he has been taught, he must want baptism, he must be baptised if possible, only complete ignorance " invincible ignorance " of theseneeds Can salvation even be possible.

[thessalonian]

"You have been fully informed of the Truth, so I would agree, that muslim in college has to assent to what he has been taught, he must want baptism, he must be baptised if possible, only complete ignorance " invincible ignorance " of theseneeds Can salvation even be possible. "


So if he was taught by a Protestant that baptism was a symbol of obedience, though it really didn't save you, he must desire baptism?

Edited December 15, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]So if he was taught by a Protestant that baptism was a symbol of obedience, though it really didn't save you, he must desire baptism?[/quote]

Sacramental baptism is neccessary for Salvation-- I am extremly leary of saying anyone who has any knowledge of it has any hope for salvation with out desiring it.

That being said in the case you mention above it is an easy answer yes he must desiere baptism, even if it was thought only a symbol it was directly instructed by Christ and one could not be in keeping with his teachings if one did not desire to obey that instruction therefore one could not have Truely given assent..


For the moslem convert this would be particularly so as the entire religion is extremly concerned with submission before God.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[thessalonian]

I listen to this evangelical street preacher over the radio. He goes out and preaches to people, convicting them of their sins by the law and then gives them the Gospel. But the Gospel never includes getting baptized. Or if it does it is in a negative way of a work that Catholics think save people. Oh, he expects them to get baptized when they find a local Church but he doesn't include it in his presentation. Now these people may come to a belief about Jesus by his preaching, but are they "saved" in your book?

By the way in case you are getting tired of my questions , this is the last one.


Blessings

Edited December 15, 2004 by thessalonian

[Budge]

One of the most false things the Catholic church is teaching now is that Allah equals God.

The Quran even denies Christ directly! Did you all know that?

So the KORAN is ANTICHRIST according to the Bible--ie of the DEVIL. "Those who deny that Jesus is Lord come in the flesh..."

5:17 Unbelievers are those who declare: "Allah is
the Messiah, the son of Mary." {51} Believers, take neither
Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one
another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one
of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. {54}
Your only friends are Allah, His apostle, and the faithful:
those who attend to their prayers, pay their alms-tax, and
kneel down in worship. Those who seek the friendship of Allah,
His apostle, and the faithful must know that Allah's followers
are sure to triumph. {57} Believers, do not seek the
friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book
before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a
pastime. {66} If the People of the Book (i.e. Christians and
Jews) accept the true faith and keep from evil, We will pardon
them their sins and admit them to the gardens of delight. {71}
[b]Unbelievers are those that say: "Allah is the Messiah, the son
of Mary." Unbelievers are those that say: "Allah is one of
three." [/b]There is one God. If they do not desist from so
saying, those that disbelieve shall be sternly punished. [b]The
Messiah, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle: other
apostles passed away before him. His mother was a saintly
woman.[/b] They both ate earthly food. {82} You will find the most
implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews
and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are
those who say : "We are Christians." {116} Then Allah will
say: "Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: 'Worship
me and my mother as gods beside Allah?'" "Glory to You," he
will answer, "how could I say that to which I have no right? If
I had ever said so, You would have surely known it. You know
what is in my mind but I cannot tell what is in Yours. You
alone know what is hidden. I spoke to them of nothing except
what You bade me. I said: "Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord."

Mary. 19:35 Such was Jesus, the son of Mary. That is the whole
truth, which they are unwilling to accept. Allah forbid that
He Himself should beget a son! When He decrees a thing He need
only say : "Be", and it is. Allah is my Lord and your Lord:
therefore serve him. That is the right path. Yet the Sects are
divided concerning Jesus. But when the fateful day arrives, woe
to the unbelievers! Their sight and hearing shall be sharpened
on the day when they appear before Us. Truly, the unbelievers
are in the grossest error. {88}[b] Those who say: "The Lord of
Mercy has begotten a son" preach a monstrous falsehood, at
which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder,
and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a
son to the Merciful, when it does not become Him to beget one! [/b]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]but are they "saved" in your book[/quote]


As I said Sacramental Baptism is neccessary for Salvation, this has nothing to do with " [i]my book[/i]" but with the teaching of the Church. I am suprised you do not know all about the requirements for "invincible ignorance"aren't you a seminarian, must have changed the required reading since my days in the Seminary.

[Don John of Austria]

Here is a good article on invinsible ignorance what it does and what it does not mean, and what it does and does not excuse.

It was much easier than writing one myself.

[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/ignorance.htm"]invinsible ignorance[/url]

Edited December 15, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 09:19 PM'] Here is a good article on invinsible ignorance what it does and what it does not mean, and what it does and does not excuse.

It was much easier than writing one myself.

[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/ignorance.htm"]invinsible ignorance[/url] [/quote]
I am well aware of what II is and your condescentoin is rather boorish. By the way I am not a seminarian and never was. I suppose that will elevate and increase your arrogance toward me. So the second that someone hears the name Jesus Christ, bamo, their damned to hell until they, not only desire baptism but actually do it? I guess Ambrose was wrong about Catechumens. Then after baptism their "off the hook". It doesn't matter if your catholic or Protestant? Sorry, your answer got my brain thinking again. By the way don't assume my ignorance as you have because I ask questions. That is rather arrogant.

Edited December 15, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

No I just thought that you said you where, I assure you I don'tthink any more or less of anyone based on their appearance at the Seminary, any of the Old timers can tell you about my War with Sacradotus. He was a seminarian, and that carried absolutely no wieght at all, he was the first person banned from phatmass.


I actually like you a great deal, you simply have a habit making sure you are oppositional even when there is little or no opposition between us, I assure you of two things I will never ever ever say who is certianly saved excpt to say that the Saints are certianly saved, and I will never say who( as an individual) is or is not Damned, I will however say what brings one to Salvation and what causes one to Burn. Outside of the Church there is no Salvation--- If one is not truly invincibly ignorant and one is not a Catholic one cannot be saved.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 09:58 PM'] No I just thought that you said you where, I assure you I don'tthink any more or less of anyone based on their appearance at the Seminary, any of the Old timers can tell you about my War with Sacradotus. He was a seminarian, and that carried absolutely no wieght at all, he was the first person banned from phatmass.


I actually like you a great deal, you simply have a habit making sure you are oppositional even when there is little or no opposition between us, I assure you of two things I will never ever ever say who is certianly saved excpt to say that the Saints are certianly saved, and I will never say who( as an individual) is or is not Damned, I will however say what brings one to Salvation and what causes one to Burn. Outside of the Church there is no Salvation--- If one is not truly invincibly ignorant and one is not a Catholic one cannot be saved. [/quote]
Agreed. My apologies for the negative comments.

[Don John of Austria]

I also appologize for anything I said which may have appeared condescending.

[Theoketos]

I Wonder if ICTHUS even bothered to read all of that? Any way I hope he did/

[Budge]

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Right here it says that the author of the KORAN is a LIAR.

Who is the father of lies?

SATAN.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This verse right here proves the author of the Koran is Satan.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

[Benedict]

Not totally on topic but a related issue:

[url="http://www.catholic.org/featured/sheen.php?ID=1311"]http://www.catholic.org/featured/sheen.php?ID=1311[/url]