CCC 841

[Guest Aluigi]

they [b]profess[/b] to hold the faith of Abraham, that doesn't mean that they DO hold the faith of Abraham. the fact that they profess it is what is important.

they acknowledge the Creator. they don't necessarily know the real God, just profess Him.

[thessalonian]

I think he might be talking about the difference between dogma and doctrine.

[Don John of Austria]

Who is.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 10:52 AM'] Who is. [/quote]
I think thessalonian is talking about una_fide's question about the Magisterium.

[Don John of Austria]

I see.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Dec 14 2004, 10:39 AM'] I think thessalonian is talking about una_fide's question about the Magisterium. [/quote]
I think your right. Sorry I didn't quote.

[thessalonian]

This is interesting from Piux IX.

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm[/url]
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments

It is very consistent from my reading with PP 841. Paragraph 841 is simply an application of the above to Moslems who may be in this state of invincible ignorance.

I should add it goes on to say


8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]


Thus those who WILLFULLY resist the Church are condemned.

Edited December 14, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

What would you call WILLFUl, I would call 1300 years of invasion and war to be pretty Willful but thats just me. NOw some Beduin in the desert of Saudi Arabia might be invincibly ignorant, but almost no educated muslim in the modern world is, they all have been offered Christ and willfully rejected Him and His Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

"but almost no educated muslim in the modern world is, they all have been offered Christ and willfully rejected Him and His Church."


What you have talked to them all? Been pretty busy then lately huh...


What a crock.

[thessalonian]

I think willful is left to Christ to judge. It really matters little from our standpoint. We must preach to all the same because we will not know where they are at until both they and we are dead and either meet in eternity or we end up in hell for not informing them of the truth. (Ez 3). Regardless of where they are at our obligation with regard to ignorance is the same. We dare not leave them in it.

I do not think this can be applied to a total class of people as you have done. Nor do I know in what way those who are of the educated class of Moslems have had Christ preached to them in a way that they can understand and accept it. What good is it to beaver dam any of them to hell. To do so is to excuse giving up on bringing them in to the fullness of the truth in my view. "Oh well, they didn't except my superior pitch on Christ right away so they must be going to hell" and we therefore shake the dust from our feet and we have done what we could. Who knows what seed we may have planted in their heart that they have not given us an honest appraisal of. I have told this story before. My father had a field that he had never planted sweet clover on. One year it was very wet in the spring and it all came up in sweet clover. It, according to the neighbor who had been around for many years had not had sweet clover on it for 20 years or more.

Edited December 14, 2004 by thessalonian

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]What you have talked to them all? [/quote]


Yes Cmom thats it you got it I've talked to all of them, why do you think I wasn't on Phatmass for 3 months.


Now to people who wish to behave in a rational manner.

[quote]
We must preach to all the same because we will not know where they are at until both they and we are dead and either meet in eternity or we end up in hell for not informing them of the truth. (Ez 3). Regardless of where they are at our obligation with regard to ignorance is the same. We dare not leave them in it.

[/quote]

No disagreement there, but it is important not to use invincible ignorance as a crutch which is often done, it is very often used to begin a relativistic approach to
other religions. " oh they're okay because we wern't able to communicate in a way that there culture could accept" THAT IS A CROCK, and that iswhat i here from catholics ALL THE TIME, INCLUDING HERE. We are obliged to try and convert the muslims and we are horridly violating the Gospel if we tell them that they might be saved if they don't convert, of course there does come a time when you must , as Christ commanded, " shake the dust off your feet" and let them accept their chosen fate. This BS that someone who has heard the truth is some how let off the hook because they didn't have it put in a way that they couldn't " accept it" is destructive and so out of keeping with the Tradition of the Church I can't even express it. We are required to change to conform to Christ, not the Gospel to change to conform to you and your culture.

[cmotherofpirl]

When you choose rationality let me know.

No one ever said anything about not [i]trying to convert them[/i], did they?

[Don John of Austria]

Cmom did you even read the thread, are you missing something, because this completly illogical statements of yours are not like you.

I have been being rational, everyone in the world who is educated has heard of Christ. If they haven't they have not been educated in anything resembling modernity. Please tell me where it is in the muslim world that they so suppress the knowledge of the great sinless prophet.

[thessalonian]

""This BS that someone who has heard the truth is some how let off the hook because they didn't have it put in a way that they couldn't " accept it" is destructive and so out of keeping with the Tradition of the Church I can't even express it. We are required to change to conform to Christ, not the Gospel to change to conform to you and your culture. "

I've not changed the Gospel to conform to anything. Further, I don't know if anyone I have spoken to about Christ and his Church is going to heaven or hell. At what point does it become bull. The point at which you utter the words Jesus Christ? Or do you have to spend 3 hours with them explaining the Eucharist and the Papacy and Baptism.

I most certainly would not tell anyone who is a Moslem that they are okay where they are at and my understanding of 841 does not mean that I would do that. It simply tells me I am not the judge as you seem to want me to be.

Why would anyone say that someone is "off the hook" because they didn't have....". Since when is anyone "off the hook" in Catholic theology. There is no assured salvation. Everyone needs to come closer to Christ or risk falling into sin and ending up being damned. Not even you and I as baptized Catholics are exempt from continuing to grow in Christ.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 05:30 PM'] Cmom did you even read the thread, are you missing something, because this completly illogical statements of yours are not like you.

I have been being rational, everyone in the world who is educated has heard of Christ. If they haven't they have not been educated in anything resembling modernity. Please tell me where it is in the muslim world that they so suppress the knowledge of the great sinless prophet. [/quote]
"I have been being rational, everyone in the world who is educated has heard of Christ. "

Your sounding a bit modernist or Protestant to me here. Sounds like you
are saying is simply hearing of Christ enough for you. Protestants claim as much. Do you think they are "off the hook". Perhaps they have even cast out demons in his name. Is that enough. At what point is someone "off the hook".